Gen II C2S Suspension Upgrades (DSC, Tractive)

[911Time]

Sorry when I say R&T I mean Touring

Touring is plug and play replacement with springs supplied or reuse existing springs and use factory top mounts. It is not that you cannot use other top mounts but the point is to make the installation full proof in the sense that the job should be as easy as say replacing B4 with new B4

When we started with 997 Turbo i requested 40/110 to be the standard as at this point we worked closely with Tractive ( and still do ) - this spring rate has been very good ( or very close variations) up until this 997.2 car

So it came as a surprise with this car, otherwise we would not have suggested to the OP

Race version allows the end consumer to select their own spring rates and dampers come with top mounts etc but you are at double the price

All I can say is that Tractive are focused on finding a resolution asap - we didn't think it appropriate that the OP spends more time without his car with trying other spring rates etc, since spring rates may not be the issue here - valving and stacking inside can significantly alter the dynamics of the damper never mind the springs

Hopefully an update soon

Ken

Thanks for clarifying :thumb:

Finger's crossed.

 

[IMI A]

I was speaking to someone in the know today and this issue with TracTive for 997 C2S being overly firm has been solved. Was a component issue. Spec of the component had been inadvertently changed by a supplier of TracTives. Game on :thumbs:

 

[911Time]

Yes, I'd heard that, in fact my 991.1 is already booked with CG next week, for full TracTive Touring install (including the New progressive rate springs), new front top mounts and lower control arms, to pair with my existing DSC and revised mapping to suit my requirements.

Great anticipation and high hopes

 

[IMI A]

You'll love TracTive. Transformational. :thumbs:

 

[IMI A]

I was speaking to someone in the know today and this issue with TracTive for 997 C2S being overly firm has been solved. Was a component issue. Spec of the component had been inadvertently changed by a supplier of TracTives. Game on :thumbs:

 

[911Time]

You'll love TracTive. Transformational. :thumbs:

Thanks - that's what I'm hoping. Been waiting 4 years for TracTive but now the time seems right. The roads aren't getting any better, so for a dual purpose sport/GT car, TracTive holds a lot of promise.

Report to follow.

 

[Slippydiff]

I was speaking to someone in the know today and this issue with TracTive for 997 C2S being overly firm has been solved. Was a component issue. Spec of the component had been inadvertently changed by a supplier of TracTives. Game on :thumbs:

Somewhat worrying to know TracTive's QC enabled them to produce dampers with out of tolerance parts I :?:

That aside, if the OP is still reading this thread, he may want to consider returning to RPMT and asking them about their custom sprung/valved KW V1's.
I drove a Gen 2 3.8S with some CSR additions last September. The KW's were superb (and some of the roads around RPMT's headquarters are truly abysmal...)



The chassis control with the KW's was far superior to the stock dampers and springs, yet was delightfully compliant without being either wallowy or crashy. Win,win.
Passive dampers, as the saying goes 'there's life in the dog yet" ...

 

[IMI A]

Depends which side of the kaleidoscopes lens you look out of. I think as a small company with 3 different suppliers for the same particular component hats off to TracTive persevering and find out what the issue was. TracTive unbeatable for 911s which are 1500kgs +. Passive suspension fine on the lighter models where less mass needs to be controlled. RPM will happily fit TracTive to any CSR.

 

[Slippydiff]

Depends which side of the kaleidoscopes lens you look out of. I think as a small company with 3 different suppliers for the same particular component hats off to TracTive persevering and find out what the issue was. TracTive unbeatable for 911s which are 1500kgs +. Passive suspension fine on the lighter models where less mass needs to be controlled. RPM will happily fit TracTive to any CSR.

Kaleidoscopes don't come into it. It's a straightforward QC issue, and irrespective of how many sub-contractors are supplying the same part, or indeed any parts, their QC protocols should have picked up the issue and stopped the parts making it into the production process.

You said :

I think there may perhaps be some sort of manufacturing issue with the 2wd Tractive dampers?

and :

Yes I've worked with similar smallish companies like Tractive. Every chance both sets faulty tbh.

The OP said :

Well and update is due.. but not the one some of you might have been expecting.. The team at 9e have been superb, but long story short - Adam did a test drive the night before my collection and was not happy with the comfort.

Given this is essential for me, he was unhappy with the setup and after quick tests was concerned the dampers were not going full soft. two weeks later and Adam has done more tests, had the Tractive UK guy down to the car for a drive and both agree the dampers do not feel 'right'.. Last one to convince is the Tractive owner himself (seems to be a slight potential of overconfidence in his product). Feedback from him is they tested fine from the factory..

So this week, 9e is looking to have more from Tractive to verify things, as I seem to have the first 997 they have fitted Tractive to that does not feel as good as it should be. Hope to have an update this week.

And so, time for an update and this is a long one and a mysterious one.. The short answer being that Tractive is looking to be a NO GO for my C2S. It has taken almost one month of tests, diagnostics to come to the conclusion that Tractive Kits for 997s are mysteriously not ideal for a Carrera 2S and a comfort bias.

The timeline:

1. Rebuild all suspension and fast road alignment setup by 9e (usual requirements for some new lower arms and drop links due to corroded bolts)
2. Test the car - Adam at 9e just before handover is not happy I am going to like it.. Too harsh on low speed poor roads (just what I hate). Adam plays with DSC for softest settings.. not happy.
3. Talk to Tractive (damper spec is perfect, not our issue). Adam re-checks all of the setup.
4. At 9e request, I ship my original PASM controller to try (as it was built using my DSC) - rules that out as ride still poor.
5. Adam gets Steve of Tractive to come down and try the car (Steve not happy - rides like a car on passive coilovers).. Tractive factory (not our issue)
6. Tractive insist on trying their controller - ships the screen and 9e bypass the Porsche PASM and DSC - Can get the dampers v soft in a static test (cue video sent of guy bouncing in my frunk).. Ride on the road - still not great.
7. Adam wonders about wheels - thinks mine are a little heavy - does a test swap to Turbo rims and PS tyres.. No difference..
8. All remain baffled.. Eventually Tractive agree to ship a whole set of new suspension last week.. Just fitted and tested today - NO change..

My own guess is that this is an issue of spring rates. All of the other builds from 9e have been Turbos, C4S and GT3s.. suspecting that my lighter C2S (also has a carbon ducktail) might not match the spring rate of the setup (and comfort low speed bias).. The current position from Tractive is that the spring rates (higher than OE) are the spring rates.. No changes.

So.. looks likely that next week I cancel it all and we go back to OE B4s and Springs..

Perhaps I am the wrong customer for Tractive.. I have no interest in a Track weapon, I wanted the most balanced riding car with the latest technology to do that. 9e have been simply amazing.. Tractive have been a mix of responsiveness and intransigence (perhaps rightly).. But it is unlikely that 9e will be fitting Tractive to a future C2S without a performance (harshness) compromise agreement I suspect.. The promise of Tractive that their suspension should be an improvement in all aspects has not been borne to be true, and my car is the first it seems to challenge that assumption that the best technology is suited (in current design) to the full range of comfort and performance.

This is all Touring line kits - fully supplied by Tractive and they are robust in their feedback on damper dyno testing (and hence not seeing this as an issue of product performance). Perhaps the element that will emerge as chipping away at that statement are the springs. The Damper + DSC or Damper + TracTive controller appear to be exonerated.

Far from being a "hats of to them scenario", it should have been viewed as an essential course of action, and one that should have been implemented as soon as the second set of dampers displayed the same erroneous characteristics as the first.

That it happened to two sets of dampers and yet the manufacturer still appeared to be taking the view it "wasn't a problem with their product", doesn't exactly inspire confidence should there be problems with their products in the future.

Not sure why you'd think a passive damper would be inferior to adaptive damper on a heavier car. I'd very much like to hear your thought processes as why you might think that would be the case.

 

[IMI A]

Keep smiling - winner

 

[Slippydiff]

Keep smiling - winner

Hard not to smile when you post comedy gold like those videos :grin:

Some bloke in a chavved up 996 turbo, no doubt with 600+hp, beats a pair of Lotus Exiges around the Houston Police Acadamy (sic) but is slower than a Mazda MX-5 and an RX-7 :floor:

And a 964 that's had what ? £150k ? spent on it (I apologise if that figure's wrong, it's been a few months since I watched the video) and gets Lee's blessing. Lee's a lovely chap, but Sebastian Loeb he ain't.

And if you think that Evo is creditable evidence as to the virtues of TracTive when it's fitted with brakes discs designed more with aesthetics in mind than performance ... :?:

When TracTive quietly win a round of the WRC, or better still the WRC outright, like Exe-TC did (won't happen, active technology has been outlawed in the WRC IIRC) you'll get my full, undivided attention, but until then ? Not so much.

The likes of WRC, Moto GP etc, all use passives, and with good reason ...







And a "heavy" 997 GT2 (& 3) on passives https :

 

[IMI A]

Many club competitors have used Tractive both in PCGB and across the pond championship to great success in fact PCGB 's main sponsor for the Club Championship was none other than TracTive last year.

TracTive was so dominant in US Porsche Club Championship it was banned as it was deemed to be an unfair advantage . You can basically set the map to actively adjust the suspension suited best to each corner of the circuit in question.

They've solved the issue on the C2S which this thread was about.

Keep smiling Henry Culley. You're a winner :thumb:

 

[M5sime]

Wow! I’m back very late to this thread and seeing the news that Tractive was the issue all along - and their extremely robust attitude to perfectly tested in spec dampers boggles the mind!! I’m happy enough with the OE, but still find it crash on terrible roads and have yet to use the PASM sport setting. It is still too firm for poor surfaces and just makes the car fidget more..

Shows I should read this forum more often as it’s a year later pretty much and somehow feel that Tractive owe 9e compensation for all their lost time. The only consolation is I saved money.

 

[flatstick]

Wow! I’m back very late to this thread and seeing the news that Tractive was the issue all along - and their extremely robust attitude to perfectly tested in spec dampers boggles the mind!! I’m happy enough with the OE, but still find it crash on terrible roads and have yet to use the PASM sport setting. It is still too firm for poor surfaces and just makes the car fidget more..

Shows I should read this forum more often as it’s a year later pretty much and somehow feel that Tractive owe 9e compensation for all their lost time. The only consolation is I saved money.

I am just looking at the DSC

 

[IMI A]

I agree 9e spent lots of time on yours M5sime without a result.

I've had a few small issues (misting on one damper after only 6000 miles) and I think TracTive maybe forgot to give 9e some parts on mine ie like these rubber decouplers/gators but they did kindly throw in longer 10mm helper springs too which they had switched to on turbo after my install. Steve Bennett MD of TracTive UK to his credit very kindly met up with me for a coffee and then test drove Minty when I pointed out the first install's NVH on low speeds turns wasn't in keeping with a 911 turbo and we got there in the end and resolved the NVH issue.

Ride, comfort, damping and body control absolutely fantastic on a 1600 kg 911 turbo with these TracTive Touring.

I suspect servicing will be more often with them. I went in eyes wide open knew they were going to be a bit more agg. Worth it in my view I genuinely have GT2/GT3 bashing handling with Merc S class comfort. They are very digital though you do lose steering feel but I've always felt a 911 turbo since 996/997 have been Playstation and even more so with 991/992 turbo s. Great product especially for PASM cars but the aircooled restomod market now installing TracTive. Same with Ruf, Pagani... TracTive standard fitment now on their latest hypercars.