Considering a 993 - Moving from a 997.2 C4S

[tob_today]

The 996 will offer some of that, but is much closer to 997 as it's essentially the same platform. Whereas 964/993 feels like a totally different car, especially due to the engines, and much else. Same as previous generations all feel different again. Just depends how basic, raw and analogue someone wants to go.

Something for everyone, that's the beauty of 911's.

 

[tyinsky]

Any 993 owners here made the change from more modern 911's? - Would love to hear you thoughts but not just the great feelings, that's easy. The heart is sold already.

More so I'd like to hear pragmatically what's the ownership experience going to be like and how different? Costs, reliability, pains, niggles no one ever mentions.

Nice looking .2 :thumb:

I went the other way (993 C2S manual coupe"” 997.2 C2S PDK coupe). I needed auto, reliability and usability. In many ways there differences between the two cars are small and for me it is the engine having water (noise, smell, way the power builds) that separates them.

The 993 is reliable for a classic car, but as others have mentioned do need money spending on them and it feels like a constant 'to-do-list'. Some will say they are built from granite etc, and they do feel strong and solid. But they are actually made from metal, rubber and plastic, and much of it is 25 years old. As an example, I'd assumed my car was totally ready to road trip with having had a full engine rebuild yet a serious fuel leak appeared mid way, and the aircon failed. These things much less of an issue if the car is doing 500 miles a year.

My spend was £50k-ish in 4/5 years. I'd say £5k a year a fair estimate for someone not too OCD about the way they want things – which is good value given they are unlikely to depreciate anytime soon and will maybe increase further.

My main 993 costs were:
Full engine rebuild.
Full suspension rebuild.
Full aircon rebuild.
Paintwork and hidden corrosion including door straps and chassis legs.

Mine had a special gift hiding for me in the form of a difficult to diagnose electrical issue that took over 100 hours to resolve.

The 997.2 is an excellent driving machine, and my classic fix is now coming from an old Mercedes SL which is better suited to cruising and restomodding, or at least it is better suited to what I want to spend on it.

Worth thinking about where the 997.2 is now; separated from the .1 cars both in reliability and a refined style, not that many of them, and the 991 that followed is not as pretty, bigger, and a host of other traits which don't appeal much.

I wouldn't want a 993 for the mileage I am doing in the 997.2 (over 20k since March 2020), but it also wouldn't be impossible to do it with a 993 either.

I'd happily have another 993. Maybe will have one. They are very charming cars. And they have a magic no 911 after will ever have. The ultimate 911 in my eyes. Just not suitable as my current daily.

 

[ATM300]

I agree with previous comments and just like Tyinsky have just gone the other way. From a 993 to 997.2 c2s manual coupe. I did 53000 miles in my 993 c2 coupe manuel in the last 5 years and spent £77k on it ex purchase price in that time. I made the expensive mistake of buying the spec I wanted not condition so inherited alot of deferred maintenance. It had 115k miles when i bought it. I used it alot including closed road rally in Mallorca and track days so my running costs would have been higher. I would not have made the change had it not been for the 993 being written off recently.

Is your 997.2 a manual, if pdk you will find the 993 much more visceral as previously mentioned but the tiptronic compared to pdk is very different, if both manual then both have lovely changes with short shift kits in my experience.

993 doesn't like the winter and I spent alot on chasing rust as I used mine all year whereas 997.2 is much less rust sensitive.

I reckon the 997.2 is the better road trip companion but the 993 used to eat 1200 mile weekends to Scotland without issue.

Headline is usage and maintenance costs I would say.

 

[vroomvroom]

The 997 is the oldest 911 you can drive every day - using it for daily duties rain or shine.


I've had a couple of 997s, and a 993, and now a '76 air-cooled.

The air-cooled cars are amazing to own and drive but you need to think twice about driving them in the rain, snow, and winter salt.

On the rare occasion when I need to use a car on short notice e.g go to an appointment, see family or friends (motorway journey) I am more likely to take my daughter's 53HP VW Up than the '76 91, if I had a gen 2 997 that would be the car of choice.

 

[hantin.w]

Thanks all for the feedback,

and @Tyinsky - That's a lovely S! :thumb:

My C4S is a manual and don't get me wrong, even in the time I've written this thread, the next time I took it out I still absolutely loved it. Still very special for me and I don't know how much more engaging the older cars are but no complaints about the drive in my 997.

On reflection, as it's not a daily, that's why I'm considering something (arguaby) more special with the 993 tho.

Key thing for me is simplicity, I've realised I don't really care about power (385 is too much for the road IMO) and whilst the 997 isn't 991/2 big, it's not 993 small. (For context, I originally wanted an Elise but ultimately the 911 is the dream really, isn't it).

I suppose the only two things putting me off is that ultimately the ship has sailed on a more affordable priced 993 (reckon I'm looking at c.£60k for a decent C2) and that for a 25yr old car - Do I need to be worried, because I'm not massively hands on.

I accept the costs tho, so whilst it's a factor, it's not everything and I'd budget accordingly.

I think I'll try and get a ride in one and see how I feel, after all, it's all theoretical at the moment in my head....


:?:

 

[hantin.w]

Also, car sits on my drive (no garage!) and I hate car covers.

Do I need to worry about water/rust on these 993's....? How's protection like

 

[vroomvroom]

Also, car sits on my drive (no garage!) and I hate car covers.

Do I need to worry about water/rust on these 993's....? How's protection like

Read some buyer guides
They rust all over the place.

I had mine resprayed and rust addressed around the wind screen, bumper stays and chassis legs - this was when it was 12 years old - most are now 25 years old.

 

[giraffeinbath]

The 997 is the oldest 911 you can drive every day - using it for daily duties rain or shine.

I'd disagree with that, again I would call the merits of an early 996.

I'm guessing a 996 isn't where your heart is OP and I get that but I thought I'd throw it out there

If I won the lottery tomorrow I'd be straight out to buy a 964 as I should have done (and almost did) 15 years ago but I look at what they cost to get into now and struggle with it.

My other vehicle is a '68 VW van and anything feels modern by comparison so I'm familiar with older cars. I guess it depends where you draw the line on what era it is you enjoy, I definitely gravitate towards older stuff and although an aircooled 911 would have been my first choice as a regular driver having owned an early 996 I think I've come to realise that as a daily it's just the right balance of old and new.

Having experience of an early 996 and a 997 although I accept they are based on a similar platform they are quite different; I find the 997 bland by comparison to the 996.

However if your heart is with an aircooled only I guess there is no substitute, and if it's going to be a second funday car then practicality doesn't come into it.

I'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you find yourself in!

 

[tob_today]

I think I'll try and get a ride in one and see how I feel, after all, it's all theoretical at the moment in my head....

That's a great idea, I'd also suggest you try a couple including a top end example for comparison. Two cars can drive very differently with the age, wear & tear of different components, and potentially different mods over time.

 

[wozy]

PM sent OP.

 

[VanRendellrooy]

Not driven a 997 so can't speak for that but I was between cars last year and drove the 993 daily including nursery drop offs from April to end of October and it really didn't miss a beat. I was even the nob head turning up to do the Tesco click and collect in it.

Not a fan of using it over the winter though, it feels its age now, hitting standing water on the motorway is real twitchy bum time, headlights are next to useless too. As for parking outside I'd for sure have a good cover on it, they aren't often visibly rusty, its all under the surface so I'd want to buy one with all the bits done already.

I'm a bit like yourself in that I'm not overly hands on these days mostly due to not having any space to work on the car and also no spare time due to family so have to rely on a specialist for everything. I've just today picked it up from a 24K service and even though nothing major needed doing it still cost me £2500. It seems to average that most years. This year was front tyres, exhaust heatshields, bumper supports, brackets etc that had all rusted away and needed replacing. There is always a to do list and I'd just try and accept that you'll never get one absolutely perfect and there will be a few little things you just might have to live with unless you have a bottomless pit. Example my aircon has never worked and never will, I'm not about to spend £3-4k on fixing it, if it's hot I'd rather open the sun roof and wind the windows down. Parts are not cheap, try looking for a replacement speedo gauge if you want a fright, thankfully I can get my faulty one repaired for about £200. Got a brake caliper rebuild to do later this year which I'm expecting will be another £2500+. It is a constant and occasionally expensive work in progress but I accept that as its an appreciating asset and well just look at the rear end of it, its a peach.

I look at what else I could get for the money and get tempted occasionally by newer 911's, Maclarens, M3's, even the AMG GT's but then every time I get in the 993 and drive it I realise its all the sports car I'll ever need and I'll never sell so long as I can afford to keep it.

 

[TheCock]

Hey there

Some of this has been said but here's my story. I've owned a 993 Carrera S (if anyone gets Porsche Post Jan edition its the Vesuvius one used on the Porsche GB stand on the first few pages) and a 997.2 Carrera. I've tried to give you an idea below of my personal experience:

Costs
Both my 993 and 997 were very reliable, in my experience the 993 was more so and I drove each of them about 4-5k miles a year max. They were both in a pack of cars so driven on nice days and events etc. I am unusual in using my local OPC for servicing, but this is supposed to be expensive and it simply wasn't. I would say I spent more on my 997 in running costs overall. FYI my 993 sold with 75k miles on about 9 years ago when it would have been 16 yrs old. The 997 (2010) sold with 37k miles on 3 months ago at 12 years old. I always buy on condition first. That is very very important on 993s. On the 993 you will be doing jobs because you want to....the 993 is a very solid car. There are rust problems but IMO these were the base of the screens front and rear and I'm sure most have been sorted now??? Anyway, very rusty cars are not the norm....or weren't! Avoid a rusty one!

Ownership
Bottom line is the 993 will be sensitive to mileages Vs value curves.....annoyingly. Its one of the reasons I sold mine. The other is the usability; aircon that maybe works or isn't fitted is not fun on a hot day with a hot flat six humming right behind you! The car is still the original design inside (albeit slightly updated) but its an old design, so if you want to hammer around in it pretty regularly this may put you off. Having said that there is NOTHING like a 993, to drive, to listen to, to smell. They are bloody awesome. The faster you drive the more it gets smoother and seems to love you. The cabin is pretty small, I'm 6'4 and with a sunroof (popular in the 90s!) I had to sit at a slight angle, but that's personal. I did drive it to the Ring and around the Ring, also to Le Mans and other events. It never missed a beat and was simply fantastic.

Values
Don't shy away from buying a very good car. Condition is king. I personally wouldn't worry about miles.....in fact when I get back in the market for one (and I will do) I will be searching for a 100k mile plus car, so I don't think about the bollocks talked about ref miles on 993s. I would advise against a low miles car. Again I'm not totally sure about the real miles on these cars (its soooooo easy to unplug the speedo on these), famously someone posted on here with a pic of them driving at speed with the speedo doing 0 mph! hahahaha.....Anyway, values are not going down, so buy one, enjoy it, look after it, do any work it needs and I'm sure you'll do okay on the purchase Vs sale price. For clarity I bought my old one for £23k, sold it for £40k and it was recently valued at £80k-90k by my OPC. Not bad. BUT don't get caught up in valuation bullpoop....it will ruin your day, just drive whenever you fancy and enjoy.

There are loads of money pits and crap cars out there, find a really really good one. Don't try and skimp on the purchase, if its a good car pay the money.

I personally wouldn't have one as my only 911 because I want the modern side of a car, because I want to do more miles - and I've moved into a car I've always wanted but never thought I'd get. But that's my personal perspective, yours will be different. Definitely drive one......you'll love it. but have one eye on using it on long journeys, spending time in there, it being very hot, etc!

Good luck with your search. 993s are fantastic 911s, but then all 911s are in their own way. You don't have to keep it forever! I've done 3 variants and loved every single one.

 

[hantin.w]

@tob_today - just realised I saw the thread on your GTS you acquired from Hexagon, lovely choice! The pricing comments are unavoidable but at the end of the day, the price is the price right, not like you can buy a new GTS anymore so the market is the market!

As with these things, hindsight and the reality is that the ship has sailed on these cars right. Looking through the old Evo mags it's crazy how prices have come eh...when 993 turbo's were £45k

:floor:

Think my biggest regret was getting a mk6 GTI when I was in my mid-20's. In hindsight I wish I picked up a 964!

Anyways, thanks for more feedback. Also noticed that @VanRendellrooy & @TheCock both have Vesuvius colours. `sounds great, pics pls...

Good thing is I'm not in a rush and like I mentioned, still absolutely love my 997. So I'll keep chatting to like minded and work out a test drive somewhere.

Spec wise, saw this at Paul Stephen's - https://www.paul-stephens.com/current-availability/porsche-993-carrera-2-1995

Something similar I spose, pending current value of my 997, but I'd accept spend a bit more on condition. As so many advise.

That being said, if the weekly lottery numbers come out I'll put a deposit on a Classic Touring! Absolutely gorgeous, tempted to see the car at the dealership just so I can check out the restored cars there

 

[diddy_p]

There are some interesting thoughts here! i'm not sure i have much to add but we've had our 993 in the family since 2003 (mine personally since 2008) - so i've been using it regularly before the 997 came out and when the 996 was close to the end of it's run. As a result it was still a benchmark for every day usability, and I'd been dailying it from the early-mid 2000s until about 2012 - but it was clear during that period that everyone elses daily usability game was being raised. I however got an s-class to go alongside the 993 - polar opposites!

fortunately with my family being in the motor trade i've had a chance to drive a wide variety of 911s (991s, 997, 996, g series, etc). one thing i'd say is that there is a similar theme to all of these cars - they all feel special and bespoke in their own way (unlike say an e46 m3 which feels like an amazing engine in a normal car - i own one of those too) and there is something similar between them all which is hard to pin, although the most distantly related cars from the 993 i'd say are the g series and 991 - the g series lacks suspension sophistication of the 993 multilink at the limit, and the 991 carrera is just so grown up and usable - you can just get in and drive it, no drama -like you could anything else modern.

My brother has a 997 gts and a 996 turbo manual so i've been able to get in and drive these cars whenever i've wanted- incl back to back- the obvious common theme is how with each generation the car becomes bigger, easier to drive and live with, along with how accessible the performance is. A sweet spot I'd say is actually the 996 turbo, it retains some raw metzger characteristics, is more usable than a 993 yet more raw than the 997 gts, although i still love my 993!

Having driven the 997 gts, 996 tt and my 993 c4 back to back one things for sure, i never feel short changed in the 993 because it's older (as you feel in some other cars/marques), and the sense of occasion is immense. i just love getting the car out of the garage, with its all analogue instruments, raw feel, old car smells and taking it for a drive - its now an occasional car but started out as a daily - i could happily daily it now if i wanted to - and i intend to use it way more this summer. Maybe you should try and get extended use of a 993 from a specialise to see if it does the same for you? you could position it in such a way as - 'if i'm happy with the 993, you buy/SOR my 997.'

as we all know, running costs are something to bear in mind and there are a few indicators of what these are in this thread and forum as to what they are. over the years i've done tonnes of work, but i'm finding nowadays that the type of buyer has changed and along with it, some independents and OPCs have too. Jobs that were quoted at 3-4k 12+ years ago are now easily 10k. The market is shifting to collectors with very deep pockets!

there are tonnes of buyers guides out there, and if you get a well sorted one - you'll have relatively few issues i'd budget 2k a year over the long term, although the last few years Jaz have mentioned nothing needed spending or doing - so i'm lucky in that sense. I recently had Tab auto take a look at the car (ex Jaz engineer) and commented on how well maintained the car was - perhaps i'm lucky.

 

[diddy_p]

Also, car sits on my drive (no garage!) and I hate car covers.

Do I need to worry about water/rust on these 993's....? How's protection like

Read some buyer guides
They rust all over the place.

I had mine resprayed and rust addressed around the wind screen, bumper stays and chassis legs - this was when it was 12 years old - most are now 25 years old.

everything rusts (as in all cars) - i'd get the bodywork sorted and undersealed no matter what, then drive and enjoy, as you really can use these in all weather.