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Specialist Cars of Malton Ltd Administration £10m Vanished #2024 update
- Thread starter 911UK
- Start date
LeopoldStotch
Silverstone
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2020
- Messages
- 127
Re: John Hawkins and Specialist Cars of Malton. Action Group
Sorry to hear about your lost car. What was it?
There's at least 5 people on the other thread who got bilked by him - I would start with PM-ing those people. Cobra said they were acting for another 10 victims in that video - maybe they would forward your email on to their clients (or maybe not if they got paid).
If you are having no help from the police it's worth looking into contacting your local crime commissioner or the police complaints commission. Alternatively writing / going in person to your MP's surgery sometimes helps in focusing the attention of local public servants.
As an earlier poster mentioned, securing a criminal conviction is key to recovering anything as the courts are loath to "pierce the veil" of a limited company for anything short of serious fraud. Getting the police to take this seriously and the CPS to prosecute is the problem, as a private prosecution (which was suggested by the American lawyer and SCoM victim on the other thread) will be expensive and difficult without the police's powers to collect evidence.
Good luck!
Sorry to hear about your lost car. What was it?
There's at least 5 people on the other thread who got bilked by him - I would start with PM-ing those people. Cobra said they were acting for another 10 victims in that video - maybe they would forward your email on to their clients (or maybe not if they got paid).
If you are having no help from the police it's worth looking into contacting your local crime commissioner or the police complaints commission. Alternatively writing / going in person to your MP's surgery sometimes helps in focusing the attention of local public servants.
As an earlier poster mentioned, securing a criminal conviction is key to recovering anything as the courts are loath to "pierce the veil" of a limited company for anything short of serious fraud. Getting the police to take this seriously and the CPS to prosecute is the problem, as a private prosecution (which was suggested by the American lawyer and SCoM victim on the other thread) will be expensive and difficult without the police's powers to collect evidence.
Good luck!
Diggermeister
Hockenheim
- Joined
- 26 May 2015
- Messages
- 663
Re: John Hawkins and Specialist Cars of Malton. Action Group
A good idea this by the OP though.
Their testimony might yet be useful in any future case. Even if they were eventually paid, there is proof there that they were not being deal with fairly.LeopoldStotch said:
A good idea this by the OP though.
- Joined
- 15 May 2002
- Messages
- 13,358
911uk is fully supportive of richie2uk's position.
If anyone has been in a similar position, please get in touch with the site and post the circumstance to how you have been scammed or contact us by email. All reviews will still need to follow our standard review validation process.
It is important that we work collectively to address this situation to ensure the scammers are held to account, the industry are held to account, there is better awareness of this unregulated problem and steps are put in place to ensure others are not scammed.
Why do we validate these reviews
You may think there is no need to validate what you post, because you have been the victim of a scam.
The site follow the same validation process to ensure your case is valid to protect the integrity of the site, which is very important to allow this forum to continue to provide this platform to all of you.
Since this is a public forum, this is to also avoid (1) other con men trying to get in on the bankruptcy case (does happen) and (2) the scammers themselves trying to play both sides of the game.
If anyone is unwilling to comply with the site's T&C which includes not following the correct validation process, your membership to the site will be suspended.
Just a reminder that I 911uk am not a 24 hour help line service, so if you feel the need to send abusive emails because I've not managed to fully answer or support your situation instantly, I reserve the right to remove your access.
If anyone has been in a similar position, please get in touch with the site and post the circumstance to how you have been scammed or contact us by email. All reviews will still need to follow our standard review validation process.
It is important that we work collectively to address this situation to ensure the scammers are held to account, the industry are held to account, there is better awareness of this unregulated problem and steps are put in place to ensure others are not scammed.
Why do we validate these reviews
You may think there is no need to validate what you post, because you have been the victim of a scam.
The site follow the same validation process to ensure your case is valid to protect the integrity of the site, which is very important to allow this forum to continue to provide this platform to all of you.
Since this is a public forum, this is to also avoid (1) other con men trying to get in on the bankruptcy case (does happen) and (2) the scammers themselves trying to play both sides of the game.
If anyone is unwilling to comply with the site's T&C which includes not following the correct validation process, your membership to the site will be suspended.
Just a reminder that I 911uk am not a 24 hour help line service, so if you feel the need to send abusive emails because I've not managed to fully answer or support your situation instantly, I reserve the right to remove your access.
mark pearce
Singapore
- Joined
- 6 May 2004
- Messages
- 2,896
Apologies for repeating myself, but as I ve said before
Once you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you give him title ' ownership" to/ of the car
If he sells / disposes of it if he doesn't pay you it becomes a civil debt that you can only pursue through legal, i.e. court based methods
You cannot find the car and ' repossess ' it from the new owner, as he has bought the car from a dealer and the law recognizes that the seller being a dealer has title to the car.
So basically you are stuffed
The police aren't interested in it being fraud, as they think it's a civil debt.
Remember a lot of businesses are limited liability companies, directors use Ltd cos for tax and to protect personal/ marital assets
So when you give someone a car on sale or return, you are giving it to them, if they don't pay you, probably because they don't have the money
You have lost it
With the current uncertainty, it's prob a time to go and get it back
Once you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you give him title ' ownership" to/ of the car
If he sells / disposes of it if he doesn't pay you it becomes a civil debt that you can only pursue through legal, i.e. court based methods
You cannot find the car and ' repossess ' it from the new owner, as he has bought the car from a dealer and the law recognizes that the seller being a dealer has title to the car.
So basically you are stuffed
The police aren't interested in it being fraud, as they think it's a civil debt.
Remember a lot of businesses are limited liability companies, directors use Ltd cos for tax and to protect personal/ marital assets
So when you give someone a car on sale or return, you are giving it to them, if they don't pay you, probably because they don't have the money
You have lost it
With the current uncertainty, it's prob a time to go and get it back
Counter Of Beans
Hockenheim
- Joined
- 10 May 2018
- Messages
- 654
Thanks for posting your tale Richie, and I wish you and others well in getting some sort of justice.
One question: what has Hawkins done with the proceeds from people like Richie? If there's, say, 20 people in Richie's position, and each has lost, say, £100,000 then there's £2m of assets somewhere to be recovered, surely? Is this what jonttt refers to in his "proceeds of crime" comment?
Given the number of SOR issues, this is an area of public concern, I'd have thought, not just a run of the mill civil matter. It would be incredibly disappointing if the authorities (AKA the police) are not interested.
One question: what has Hawkins done with the proceeds from people like Richie? If there's, say, 20 people in Richie's position, and each has lost, say, £100,000 then there's £2m of assets somewhere to be recovered, surely? Is this what jonttt refers to in his "proceeds of crime" comment?
Given the number of SOR issues, this is an area of public concern, I'd have thought, not just a run of the mill civil matter. It would be incredibly disappointing if the authorities (AKA the police) are not interested.
jonttt
Monaco
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2012
- Messages
- 10,586
I posted up very early in these SOR frauds that they smell very much of 'Teeming and Lading"......
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeming_and_lading
Ie they where viable businesses that in the boom times did well.....they funded a certain lifestyle for the owners .........then things get tougher and rather than adjust lifestyle / to maintain an 'image" they 'borrow" easy money to be able to pay other debts......the intention initially is 'its only for a while, they will get paid back".......but that never happens and things are put in motion and a hole is dug which just gets bigger and bigger.....behind it all is that inability to adjust your lifestyle and be perceived to be struggling to all the 'friends" and 'associates" you mingle with....a large part is self denial and greed..........its looks as if in this case the whole thing escalated when he got involved with genuine fraudsters who helped facilitate the fraud when the whole probably got too big for him to get out of ie went to another level again......
Facilitating this whole scam was the weakness of the SOR system which was exploited.........
There are 3 issues to me:
- those affected directly getting some form of justice from him, I fear that may only be through criminal rather than civil prosecution and POCAHONTAS
- a wider 'public interest" issue with SOR rather like (but on a smaller scale) than the widespread fraud in pensions due to regulation not being fit for purpose when they relaxed the pension rules and relied too much on the integrity of regulated financial advisors
- ensuring that this crooks next venture is 'impacted" by his history so he is never again in a position of trust......the easiest way to do that bizarrely is that whatever venture he is associated with next, whatever banking arrangements are in place that he has been fully disclosed as a person of significant control with his history of fraud
If interest can be taken in SOR as being of 'public interest" then the SFO can get interested as it has a wider public benefit than just those affected in this case .....the numbers involved and especially if a link between the 'Yorkshire triangle" can be established this could lead to a view of significant enough organised crime for them to take further in the public interest
:judge: .......that ultimately may be the best route to proceeds of crime which is multi national ie where the proceeds have been used abroad to buy property etc.......
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeming_and_lading
Ie they where viable businesses that in the boom times did well.....they funded a certain lifestyle for the owners .........then things get tougher and rather than adjust lifestyle / to maintain an 'image" they 'borrow" easy money to be able to pay other debts......the intention initially is 'its only for a while, they will get paid back".......but that never happens and things are put in motion and a hole is dug which just gets bigger and bigger.....behind it all is that inability to adjust your lifestyle and be perceived to be struggling to all the 'friends" and 'associates" you mingle with....a large part is self denial and greed..........its looks as if in this case the whole thing escalated when he got involved with genuine fraudsters who helped facilitate the fraud when the whole probably got too big for him to get out of ie went to another level again......
Facilitating this whole scam was the weakness of the SOR system which was exploited.........
There are 3 issues to me:
- those affected directly getting some form of justice from him, I fear that may only be through criminal rather than civil prosecution and POCAHONTAS
- a wider 'public interest" issue with SOR rather like (but on a smaller scale) than the widespread fraud in pensions due to regulation not being fit for purpose when they relaxed the pension rules and relied too much on the integrity of regulated financial advisors
- ensuring that this crooks next venture is 'impacted" by his history so he is never again in a position of trust......the easiest way to do that bizarrely is that whatever venture he is associated with next, whatever banking arrangements are in place that he has been fully disclosed as a person of significant control with his history of fraud
If interest can be taken in SOR as being of 'public interest" then the SFO can get interested as it has a wider public benefit than just those affected in this case .....the numbers involved and especially if a link between the 'Yorkshire triangle" can be established this could lead to a view of significant enough organised crime for them to take further in the public interest
:judge: .......that ultimately may be the best route to proceeds of crime which is multi national ie where the proceeds have been used abroad to buy property etc.......
cheshire911
Portimao
- Joined
- 10 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 4,030
mark pearce said:
A good post Mark! Spot-on also. If SCoM has gone jnto liquidation or bankrupt, these unfortunate punters become unsecured creditors (or naybe not if title has passed to SCoM). Collective litigation probably has little chance of success. After all, if SCoM has no cashflow and not the assets to pay creditors, ot us exactly how they find themselves in bankruptcy or liquidation. By all mesns they csn collectively try to recover what they are owed, but I suspect at a great cost with limited chance of success. Creditors cannot chase SCoM personal assets. Only the business assets.
Sad. Very sad case with little chance of success.......
cheshire911
Portimao
- Joined
- 10 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 4,030
jonttt said:
Remote possibility of a criminal conviction as it is debt (as per Msrk Pearce's post). Proving the business was trading whilst insolvent is extrenely difficult.
Its a free world, people can try collectively exploring or recovering their monies but at a huge cost and very small possibility of winning. The Police are not interested.
Sooner or later one has to accept they took a risk with SoR and the choice of dealership for the SoR. The risk in this case resulted in loss. It then becomes having to accept the loss and move on. Tough message perhaps but probably a heavy tinge of reality.......
cheshire911
Portimao
- Joined
- 10 Jun 2012
- Messages
- 4,030
jonttt said:
Remote possibility of a criminal conviction as it is debt (as per Mark Pearce's post). Proving the business was trading whilst insolvent is extrenely difficult and unlikely to be proven.
Its a free world, people can try collectively exploring or recovering their monies but at a huge cost and very small possibility of winning. The Police are not interested. It is sern by them as a civil matter. And as Mark points out, you hand over title to your car to the dealer in absolute trust.
Sooner or later one has to accept they took a risk with SoR and the choice of dealership for the SoR. The risk in this case resulted in loss that looks prima fascie to be unrecoverable.
It then becomes a case of having to accept the loss that came with the risk and move on. Tough message perhaps but probably a heavy tinge of reality.......
jonttt
Monaco
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2012
- Messages
- 10,586
Mmmmmm no one said it would be easy but I think you need to read up on director responsibilities with regard to fraud or the intent of fraud and also trading whilst knowingly insolvent.....there are certain areas that cross from contractual / civil debts to criminal :judge:
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