R8 GT with cooked clutch

[OttoOtto]

Evening all

I think I'm being a bit dull here

But if anyone's seen the case of the R8 being left in gear by a storage company as covered by Jay Em and Blackbelt barrister..

...apparently you can exit the car with the engine running, whilst it is in gear, and let the clutch destroy itself.

I've got a feeling someone's going to point out where I've got this wrong but it seems weird that this can happen :dont know:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIz64aKAS8Y

 

[Luddite]

I suspect not just in an R8. I think many modern auto boxes have a setting that operates like hill hold using the point of contact to hold station on a hill after you initially take your foot off the brake pedal when in drive. The same thing if sitting in drive at at traffic lights when you take your foot off the brake until you begin to depress the accelerator... :?:

 

[OttoOtto]

Yes but the parking brake was applied and the driver left the vehicle - you'd think it would automatically go into neutral?

 

[Luddite]

I suspect much depends on the logic of the programming, what you or I might imagine could be logical method of operation compared to that which is actually programmed in..? If I remember correctly this was perhaps a ten year old car, I suspect there may be numerous possibilities relative to electrical gremlins creeping in to complicate the situation, but then that is all just conjecture..?

If I remember correctly, the storage service accepted the car in without any obvious clutch odour and later contacted the owner to say it was smelling foul and with a warning light/message.. but then who knows the facts.. Not me for sure.

I do know of one accident where the hill-hold capability is suspected to have played a part, the engine being switched off caused the car to roll down hill..! I think there are all sorts of accidents caused by the requirement to adapt to a new process that suits the vehicles software for those taught to drive some time back when using a key to open doors, to switch on and off ignition, and are used to manually operate a handbrake lever.. :?:

 

[Ratattak]

Don't know if this'll help but my fourteen year old Mercedes CL500 goes into park automatically when the drivers door is opened.

 

[Luddite]

Digitally programmable vehicles can be configured to operate in numerous different ways though I suspect and hope that there may be some base line built into construction and use regs..

In my 991 the switch for the handbrake requires to be pushed to engage it which in terms of human logic is a reversal of normal operation...Yeah it can all get very confusing if you are not tuned into the particular vehicles required programming and thus operational requirements it seems obvious that mistakes will be made.. :?:

 

[Slippydiff]

I watched the video last night. The whole scenario was bizarre (to put it mildly)
The R8 GT used the earlier R-Tronic transmission, effectively an automated manual gearbox (with upgraded software specifically for the GT model)
It sounded like someone had ridden the clutch excessively whilst parking or reversing the car, to the degree the clutch started to overheat, at which point either a temp sensor or clutch wear/throw sensor recognised the clutch assembly was overheating or its throw was excessive/not sufficient, and a warning light appeared on the dashboard.


Clearly the driver thought the smell was of concern and stopped trying to manoeuvre the car, but rather than put the car into neutral and switch the engine off, they left the engine running and the transmission in D (one imagines with the handbrake on)
Now in theory the clutch should have had sufficient clearance for it not to produce any friction (the clutch release is controlled by the fly by wire throttle, so as the throttle is pressed, the clutch actuator starts to release the clutch to take the drive up to the gearbox)

My guess is that having been critically overheated by the manoeuvring, the clutch clearance was drastically reduced due to expansion and/or the fracture of the friction material on the drive plate, and thus with the engine running, the clutch would have provided friction and in turn heat, as the the car was 'held" by the handbrake.

That telltale light was a clutch overheating warning. Had the car been put into neutral and the engine switched off, the scenario may have been avoided ...

FWIW the early Ferrari 355's fitted with the F1 shift had similar problems when used in heavy traffic or reversed up inclines. The transmission ECU would see the clutch throw/clearance tolerances outside the set parameters, and either fail to select a gear or go into limp-home mode.
By the time this happened the clutch had been overheated and was scrap.
Plenty of owners got very irate when their dealer told them replacement clutches were in short supply, and their cars would be off the road for at least two months until fresh supplies of new m clutch assemblies became available.

It later transpired the clutches were in short supply because the problem afflicted the Challenge racecars (same powertrain) and Ferrari considered their Challenge car owners more important than their road car customers, so the new replacement clutches were supplied to them ...

 

[OttoOtto]

I watched the video last night. The whole scenario was bizarre (to put it mildly)
The R8 GT used the earlier R-Tronic transmission, effectively an automated manual gearbox (with upgraded software specifically for the GT model)
It sounded like someone had ridden the clutch excessively whilst parking or reversing the car, to the degree the clutch started to overheat, at which point either a temp sensor or clutch wear/throw sensor recognised the clutch assembly was overheating or its throw was excessive/not sufficient, and a warning light appeared on the dashboard.


Clearly the driver thought the smell was of concern and stopped trying to manoeuvre the car, but rather than put the car into neutral and switch the engine off, they left the engine running and the transmission in D (one imagines with the handbrake on)
Now in theory the clutch should have had sufficient clearance for it not to produce any friction (the clutch release is controlled by the fly by wire throttle, so as the throttle is pressed, the clutch actuator starts to release the clutch to take the drive up to the gearbox)

My guess is that having been critically overheated by the manoeuvring, the clutch clearance was drastically reduced due to expansion and/or the fracture of the friction material on the drive plate, and thus with the engine running, the clutch would have provided friction and in turn heat, as the the car was 'held" by the handbrake.

That telltale light was a clutch overheating warning. Had the car been put into neutral and the engine switched off, the scenario may have been avoided ...

FWIW the early Ferrari 355's fitted with the F1 shift had similar problems when used in heavy traffic or reversed up inclines. The transmission ECU would see the clutch throw/clearance tolerances outside the set parameters, and either fail to select a gear or go into limp-home mode.
By the time this happened the clutch had been overheated and was scrap.
Plenty of owners got very irate when their dealer told them replacement clutches were in short supply, and their cars would be off the road for at least two months until fresh supplies of new m clutch assemblies became available.

It later transpired the clutches were in short supply because the problem afflicted the Challenge racecars (same powertrain) and Ferrari considered their Challenge car owners more important than their road car customers, so the new replacement clutches were supplied to them ...

Brilliant - thanks :worship: I think you nailed it!

I thought the car was newer with a DCT which is why I struggled with how this could happen (R Tronic sounds horrible for road use). So us PDK owners don't need to worry so much.

I did something similar with my 535d - auto start stop kicked in when I parked in a hurry (key-less start) - applied the e-brake, locked the car and got a knock 4 hours later saying my engine was running. Can't remember if it was still in drive but no issue for a ZF box.

You may be right about the parking procedure heating the clutch but I can't help feeling previous activity might have contributed to this, after all the fly by wire assumes the clutch is sound, and as you say, there should be tolerance. I was surprised this was such an overt name-and-shame (which benefits the YT players) and felt a little sorry for the company - oh well.

 

[Clanky]

I watched the whole thing. It seems a poor choice of programming from the start.
The trouble with it being a normal clutch as opposed to a dual clutch in a bath of oil or auto box with torque converter, is as soon as you take your foot off the brake, it automatically starts to engage to the bite & the driver got out of the car to have a look round & it started to overheat & cook it.
I'm sure a better option would be to only allow it to bite when the handbrake is released.
It was poor form of both the storage company & their insurer to deny responsibility and claim to know more about it than Audi themselves.

 

[Zingari]

I think this is common with all the 'auto' boxes that don't 'creep' when in drive requiring some slight throttle to get them moving. My 4C was like this with a warning in the handbook not to stop with the car in drive without depressing the footbrake presumably to stop the clutch skimming the drive plate?

My pal a near lifelong auto driver found his 599 most disconcerting as he said in D on an incline it would roll backwards and not something he was used to. He didn't have it for long :roll:

 

[Slippydiff]

I watched the whole thing. It seems a poor choice of programming from the start.
The trouble with it being a normal clutch as opposed to a dual clutch in a bath of oil or auto box with torque converter, is as soon as you take your foot off the brake, it automatically starts to engage to the bite & the driver got out of the car to have a look round & it started to overheat & cook it.
I'm sure a better option would be to only allow it to bite when the handbrake is released.
It was poor form of both the storage company & their insurer to deny responsibility and claim to know more about it than Audi themselves.

It does require the application of some throttle to activate the the clutch engagement procedure, removing your foot from the brake pedal will not initiate the process.

I think this is common with all the 'auto' boxes that don't 'creep' when in drive requiring some slight throttle to get them moving. My 4C was like this with a warning in the handbook not to stop with the car in drive without depressing the footbrake presumably to stop the clutch skimming the drive plate?

My pal a near lifelong auto driver found his 599 most disconcerting as he said in D on an incline it would roll backwards and not something he was used to. He didn't have it for long :roll:

Precisely this ^

I drove 30k miles in my M3 CSL, and as I became more attuned to the car, you could actually feel (and hear) the electro/hydraulic clutch actuator mechanism coming up to the clutch's bite point as you slowly pressed the throttle pedal down to move away.

On the flat it was ok to hold it at this point, but I made a point of not holding the car "on the clutch" on inclines, far better to get on the throttle slightly more heavily and ensure the clutch is fully engaged and driving the car forwards.

The clutch on the CSL was the standard M3 manual part, so if it did fail, it wasn't going to break the bank. I suspect the same can't be said for a 599 clutch (and fitting it, and numerous hours of system adaption/clutch teaching with a PC plugged into the car, and the myriad other components the dealer thought they could get away with fleecing the owner for "whilst they were in there" ...)