996 c2 project

[infrasilver]

It is common knowledge that a LWF does seem to wreck an M96 engine on the track. Did it get balanced paired with the crankshaft whilst the crankshaft was out of the engine?

 

[crash7]

RyanT964

Sorry to hear about your engine issues.

Could you comment on the sump/baffle combination you were running initially when you experienced the failure? And what combination your now running?

What tyres were you running?

Do you know the route cause of the failure? Was it oil starvation related? Or LWFW?

I run a similar spec car with a FVD motorsport sump (0.6 litre increased capacity & X51 baffle) on Yoko AD08R rubber and have not (yet) suffered any starvation issues on track. I am wondering whether the issue was LWFW related? - There are many threads that question the suitability of the mod on an M96.

 

[Marky911]

Ouch. Not a good result Ryan!

Anyone who tracks these engines is a braver man than me. They simply aren't up to proper hard track work.

Whilst maybe not your cause, the oil system isn't up to the big lateral G's that sticky tyres bring.
It's why GT3s are held in such high esteem.

I love my 996 as a road car but wouldn't dream of tracking it. I think owners who do are on borrowed time.

I'm glad you're back up and running with a hopefully more suitable engine.
If you'd known at the start though you could have probably bought a GT3 for the same money you've spent.
Have fun though. Well done for sticking at it. :thumb:

 

[RyanT964]

Hi everyone,

Will try answer all your questions below...

Ken made sure the crank and lwfw were properly balanced this time round! It took a bit of work but it definitely is smooth (if noisy). The first one was balanced as well as could be, but was done on the car as we didn't remove the crank... with the engine out and undergoing a rebuild it was a proper job the second time around!

I personally don't believe any failures are attributable to the lwfw

The first engine was running a deep sump kit (not sure of the baffles?) but the issue that triggered the meltdown was the timing chain snapped. Hartech put their own deep sump kit on when the block was rebuilt.

Tires are the same they've always been - Pirelli p zero's... don't want (or need)anything stickier as it's not a race car... I actually prefer less grip in this regard.

The m96 actually isn't a bad engine if it's done ok - hartech have been running a season in the porsche cup cars here with absolutely reliability and no rebuilds mid season... that should show that when done properly there's no doubt they can stand the abuse quite easily.

As regards getting a GT3 instead, it would have cost substantially more (almost double in fact)... so relatively, I think the 996 with mods is still a reasonable alternative!
Besides, where we would I have had so much 'fun" off the track too and learnt so much!!!

Ken can chip in with indicative costs for all the mods!

Cheers guys,
Ryan

 

[crash7]

Ryan, cheers for info :thumb:

Marky, I get your comments on the GT3, but circa £65k is a big outlay for a track car when a C2 can be had for circa £13k. - You drop another £17k on a C2 and for £30k you have a quick reliable car.

At circa £30k I see a C2 as a good option, its an analog, rear wheel drive tin top you can drive to the circuit, surprisingly there is not really that much available in that bracket. (Exige/M3/996)

However everyone has a different take.

 

[NLW73]

so how many m96 engines do you need to go through before you could have bought a proper engine and the mezger in the back of the GT3?

at 10-15k for a proper rebuild its not going to be too many.

 

[Dammit]

Hartech race their engines for an entire season between rebuilds, that's equivalent to a lot of track days and road driving.

 

[crash7]

so how many m96 engines do you need to go through before you could have bought a proper engine and the mezger in the back of the GT3?

at 10-15k for a proper rebuild its not going to be too many.

If the rebuild is done correctly you should not need to go through more than one. The M96 is raced in the Porsche club championship, on slicks, and as already pointed out by Hartech once rebuilt well there is no reason for it not to be reliable, particularly when used for fast road / occasional track day use.

There are many m96's that see trackday use without issue, when ever using an M96 on track is mentioned inevitably the suggestion that a GT3 is more suited comes up, it is, but is also 4 times the cost, and even the mighty mezger sees failures, albeit less but there are also less of them.

If 'more suited' to the application is the driver, buy a Caterham, for half the money it will muller a GT3. - Some guys want to track their 911 and are prepared to throw caution to the wind, although not a track car the C2 was pedaled around the ring by Walter during its development, even in standard trim its capable. - 95% of the cars on trackdays are not primarily designed for this purpose.

Each to their own, you pay your money you take your chances, you could write a GT3 off on the road, does that mean your not going to us it.

 

[crash7]

Double Post - Damn and blast this machine!

 

[NineExcellence]

It is common knowledge that a LWF does seem to wreck an M96 engine on the track. Did it get balanced paired with the crankshaft whilst the crankshaft was out of the engine?

That actually needs a little more explanation. A factory crankshaft is balanced individually and then mated to flywheel whether LW or DM. As far as I am aware there is no balancing of the two together on the production line. The reliance is upon the manufacturing tolerances.

With DM fitted, the resonance it significantly reduced on the crank. With LW the resonance is increased. Lots of cars have LW fitted with zero issues where they had DM fitted. We have done loads without issues.

The problem we have found, is the quality of the manufacturing tolerances on a LWFW. You would assume, that manufacturers ensure that these are within a small spec, but that could not be further from the truth in our experience.

When we fit a LWFW, the flywheel and clutch assembly is checked and balanced. This is as much as you can do without having the crank in your hand.

We do crank/flywheel balance when building all engines. But imagine then that in a while you have to replace the LWFW for some reason - you are still in the same position.


As to Ryan original engine, it was already on iirc around 130k mileage and unknown to the condition other than after inspection it had good compression, no bearing issues etc. With an exposure of £6k for a brand new short block from Porsche (in terms of part cost) the risk was taken to see how the engine performed. The X51 sump was fitted etc to minimise risk.

IIRC Ryan had been canning the car for 3 hours with little stops for tyre pressures/fuel in between when the engine let go. He knows how to drive as well :grin:

From the strip of the engine it looked like the chain had snapped first. Difficult to be 100% sure but the sequence looks correct.

As Grant (Hartech) will tell you (and we speak regularly) the M96 even with every possible upgrade in the engine is still a risk for track/race usage. There are no guarantees unfortunately. Hopefully Ryan will have a track day season without issues.

Re the cost factor, if you get away with one engine build then it is till a solution compared to the gt3 in terms of price.

Ken

 

[EGTE]

Hartech run an M96-engine Cup car?

 

[Marky911]

If the rebuild is done correctly you should not need to go through more than one. The M96 is raced in the Porsche club championship, on slicks, and as already pointed out by Hartech once rebuilt well there is no reason for it not to be reliable, particularly when used for fast road / occasional track day use.

There are many m96's that see trackday use without issue, when ever using an M96 on track is mentioned inevitably the suggestion that a GT3 is more suited comes up, it is, but is also 4 times the cost, and even the mighty mezger sees failures, albeit less but there are also less of them.

If 'more suited' to the application is the driver, buy a Caterham, for half the money it will muller a GT3. - Some guys want to track their 911 and are prepared to throw caution to the wind, although not a track car the C2 was pedaled around the ring by Walter during its development, even in standard trim its capable. - 95% of the cars on trackdays are not primarily designed for this purpose.

Each to their own, you pay your money you take your chances, you could write a GT3 off on the road, does that mean your not going to us it.

A GT3 is not 4 times the cost though.

I'll wager Ryan has £30k+ in his car. Anyone will have. It's £20k to have a sorted 996, unless you're very lucky with purchase such as Mister corn with his latest one, but that isn't a C2, although he may rip the front driveshafts out.
Say £13k for a decent C2, then coilovers and setup, fresh fuel and water pumps, rads etc. An engine rebuild to pretty standard spec is £12k+.

The ex 911 & PW mk1 GT3 sold last year for thirty something. It would be a no brainer. Even now you can get GT3s for £50k. The market peaked about 18 months ago. You'll see most of that back too. How much of your £35k will you see back trying to sell a tracked, modded C2?

Like you say, for some it simply must be a 911, but for me it would be a pointless expense and I'd be gutted to have over £30k in a non-mezger 996.

We all have our view though and I admire Ryan seeing his plan through, so I don't want to derail the thread.

Fair play Ryan, I bet you're looking forward to getting a load of track miles piled on. Enjoy the car. :thumb:

 

[Dammit]

I'm echoing ELA in his thread I know, but for me I quite enjoy the red-headed stepchild nature of the M96'd 996.

By the time I'm finished with my (almost least desirable of the entire 996 series) car I will have spent enough to buy a GT3 - which is, by any logical measure, insane.

But - I'm enjoying the journey, and the next big step is rebuilding the engine to remove the weaknesses that Porsche sadly left in there.

It's not just the destination, it's the journey in many ways (for me, anyway).

That everyone hates the 996 carrera makes it slightly sweeter, for some reason.

 

[infrasilver]

It is common knowledge that a LWF does seem to wreck an M96 engine on the track. Did it get balanced paired with the crankshaft whilst the crankshaft was out of the engine?

That actually needs a little more explanation. A factory crankshaft is balanced individually and then mated to flywheel whether LW or DM. As far as I am aware there is no balancing of the two together on the production line. The reliance is upon the manufacturing tolerances.

With DM fitted, the resonance it significantly reduced on the crank. With LW the resonance is increased. Lots of cars have LW fitted with zero issues where they had DM fitted. We have done loads without issues.

The problem we have found, is the quality of the manufacturing tolerances on a LWFW. You would assume, that manufacturers ensure that these are within a small spec, but that could not be further from the truth in our experience.

When we fit a LWFW, the flywheel and clutch assembly is checked and balanced. This is as much as you can do without having the crank in your hand.

We do crank/flywheel balance when building all engines. But imagine then that in a while you have to replace the LWFW for some reason - you are still in the same position.

I'm sure they weren't balanced together at the factory, I think it is the overhang on the M96 crank paired with loss of dampening of a DMF causing issues when fitting a LWF.

Replacing a LWF (once you had already balanced with the crank) and also a new clutch kit every 20k miles could upset the harmony once you had gone through the hard work and expense of paring them up with the crankshaft out of the engine. A DIY engine rebuild is potentially really cheap (as long as there are no large cost parts to replace) to get to the crankshaft without the expense of labour added.

I'm sure the LWF problem didn't cause Ryan's failure, (I was just making folk aware that a LWF can cause problems) it would have most likely been a stretched chain paired with worn guides and a tooth on a gear catching the chain roller, unfortunately these chain rollers are a weak point due to them being split and crimp fitted over the link.

FYI, I have had a chain snap and crankshaft snap (at different events)both on track and not really hammering the car. I could have bought a GT3 with what I have spent on my car (when they were around £35k) but I would have spent even more on maintaining the GT3 on top of the original purchase.

The M96 is a great engine in its own right for performance and I love the way it goes through the gears, it's just a pity it has a few weak spots.

 

[galahad]

A GT3 is not 4 times the cost though.

I'll wager Ryan has £30k+ in his car. Anyone will have. It's £20k to have a sorted 996, unless you're very lucky with purchase such as Mister corn with his latest one, but that isn't a C2, although he may rip the front driveshafts out.
Say £13k for a decent C2, then coilovers and setup, fresh fuel and water pumps, rads etc. An engine rebuild to pretty standard spec is £12k+.

The ex 911 & PW mk1 GT3 sold last year for thirty something. It would be a no brainer. Even now you can get GT3s for £50k. The market peaked about 18 months ago. You'll see most of that back too. How much of your £35k will you see back trying to sell a tracked, modded C2?

Like you say, for some it simply must be a 911, but for me it would be a pointless expense and I'd be gutted to have over £30k in a non-mezger 996.

We all have our view though and I admire Ryan seeing his plan through, so I don't want to derail the thread.

Fair play Ryan, I bet you're looking forward to getting a load of track miles piled on. Enjoy the car. :thumb:

To be fair, you're comparing the £30k of a C2 with everything fully sorted for track use with the cheapest GT3s on the market (the only sub £70k on on PH is a Cat D) which could easily need a further £10k spending on them in terms of refreshing to be comparable.

Horses for courses, but there's very little else you could buy for £30k that would do as much as well as a sorted 996. E46 M3 maybe?

Even at 'only' double that price, a GT3 is a very different proposition for most people.