Prices down

[BenB91]

Be interesting to see how much this goes for -I bet it doesn't make £60k.

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2015-porsche-911-991-2-carrera-s-1

Finished at £52,500. Didn't make reserve.

 

[NDA]

Should have cleaned the wheels.

 

[Harryblue]

Like I said, this is where forum chatter makes no difference, people can say whatever they want but over in the real world reality is happening.

This car got nowhere near the reserve.

 

[TurboSandGT4]

yes we know cars are dropping in price but everything is relative
and relatively speaking 911s are doing really well and that includes the 991

 

[Harryblue]

yes we know cars are dropping in price but everything is relative
and relatively speaking 911s are doing really well and that includes the 991

That one didn't do really well

 

[Harryblue]

I don't even know what a good price is these days, but I saw a GTS sell in October and if I didn't already have three 911s I'd have loved something like this, especially after watching that recent Catchpole video where he said the 4 had sorted steering.

I just went back and had a look and I'm going to post a picture just to try and bring a bit of cheer back to the thread, it was a gorgeous blue 991 GTS, absolutely stunning. It went for £62k which I think was fair and here it is, genuinely stunning.

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2015-porsche-911-991-carrera-4-gts-5

 

[Marty*]

As the title suggests prices are down nothing new here as it happens to most things in life. As most people know the cars we buy all depreciate as to why that is some have differing views but clearly it’s a buyers market at the moment and how many times have we seen that before?

 

[Harryblue]

As the title suggests prices are down nothing new here as it happens to most things in life. As most people know the cars we buy all depreciate as to why that is some have differing views but clearly it’s a buyers market at the moment and how many times have we seen that before?

Well it wasn't that long ago that things like Porsche 911s and Rolex watches were pretty bulletproof in depreciation and could even make money, then if you add onto that the frankly ridiculous and irresponsible quantitive easing that the global banks were engaged in for a decade before covid and then a massive ramp up during covid, then you can see why some people would think it's normal to expect low depreciation with all that money flying around and cheap finance.

I remember in the mid-2000's my mate working out that his 911 cost him on average about a grand a month when he factored in running costs and depreciation, we all kept tabs on stuff like that back in the day, my Impreza was something like £300 a month, and it was fairly well accepted that depreciation was just a fact of life.

But people can be emotional and overestimate the worth of something that they're emotional about, especially if they have a sizeable chunk of their net worth tied up in it, so when you suggest it's overvalued they get really upset about it.

It must be testy for car buyers at the moment taking abuse.

 

[Marty*]

Well it wasn't that long ago that things like Porsche 911s and Rolex watches were pretty bulletproof in depreciation and could even make money, then if you add onto that the frankly ridiculous and irresponsible quantitive easing that the global banks were engaged in for a decade before covid and then a massive ramp up during covid, then you can see why some people would think it's normal to expect low depreciation with all that money flying around and cheap finance.

I remember in the mid-2000's my mate working out that his 911 cost him on average about a grand a month when he factored in running costs and depreciation, we all kept tabs on stuff like that back in the day, my Impreza was something like £300 a month, and it was fairly well accepted that depreciation was just a fact of life.

But people can be emotional and overestimate the worth of something that they're emotional about, especially if they have a sizeable chunk of their net worth tied up in it, so when you suggest it's overvalued they get really upset about it.

It must be testy for car buyers at the moment taking abuse.

Cars and watches are a good example of how the market’s are flat but as with everything they’ll come back. And if you are in it for the long haul you have to expect the ups and downs of ownership

 

[Harryblue]

Cars and watches are a good example of how the market’s are flat but as with everything they’ll come back. And if you are in it for the long haul you have to expect the ups and downs of ownership

Actually, thinking about it, it's never been like that.
I've bought loads of watches and a new GT3 on demand, they weren't in short supply, it's definitely a post-2019 thing if you're talking Rolex/Patek and GT3s.

(I edited all the examples of what I bought because it might not come across well to some people)

 

[TurboSandGT4]

lets open a Rolex price thread , waiting for a green submariner (year long waitlist with a 10K markup over list for an unworn)
Of course some posters will say the new rolex are crap and the one for 1980 is much better because it needs more winding

 

[Luddite]

A bit of a BB`s personal perspective ramble on values over time..

Yeah for me the C4S GTS would be my pick of the 991.1 Harry, I just had to settle for a C4S in a blue hue, with my preferred silver wheels...

At the time I bought my C4S circa 3 years ago (2012- 2013MY) with perhaps 42k miles on the clock and looking as new, with multiple owners (as seems to be the way off it these days) I paid circa £65k by the time I took on 3 years price protection Insurance and had Autoglym Lifeshine applied and had it delivered from a couple of hundred miles distant when Covid was still a thing. I never viewed my car in the metal prior to paying for it in full though I did view it is some detail via a dealer supplied vid of underside with trays removed and the deal being recorded via email, with a 6 month warranty from an official (Porsche related) BMW franchise...I guess other than tax and classic Insurance, it perhaps owes me £73k... What are the chances of achieving anything like that in today`s market...! Fortunately I knew I was buying in a hot market and it`s value was bound to drop in time, thus in no way was it it bought as any kind of investment and currently have no need or want to part with it, though I do tend to favour air cooled, more related to the time I was at peak Porsche, so nostalgia may play more a part in that line of thought than practicality..? (-: The recently posted circa £120k 911 SC with supposedly next to no mileage, might have tempted me had a straight swap been a possibility, but if in any way possible, I think the C4S perhaps better suits the old man I have become....These days my spanners gather dust, and depend upon my OPC to look after maintenance issues as the extended warranty seems to dictate.

Being of the baby boomer cohort, my values in terms of classic vehicles are likely to be more centred around my own past desires and experiences as a hands-on restorer of my own old sports cars over the decades, which I am happy to share... up to a point.. (-:

I have typed previously of a view that I have held for quite a few years, that the classic car market is perhaps driven by generational ideals, and it seems to me that the baby boomers (BB`s) on average were perhaps the generation who first experienced a measure of disposable income, whereas their parents had come through the austerity of the war years and beyond well into the 60`s..? The effect of BB`s having disposable income seems to have equated to an exponential interest in what up till that time had been regarded as old bangers, many of which had been parked up during and soon after the war, the introduction of the MOT (1960) left some former old runners also being parked up as their owners thought them too good to scrap, and that they might get round to sorting whatever the issue was in time, it seems many never did. There were ever those who were happy enough to have a go at repairing old cars as a basic form of transport, I was one such... My source of learning mechanical matters was initially Motorcycle Mechanics mag, followed on by Car Mechanics when I bought my first four wheeled rot box, a 1959 Frogeye Sprite... (-:

As the seventies arrived it seems that the car press had noticed the growing uptake in interest in old cars amongst the general population, thus circa 1972 Classic Car magazine appeared on the news stands, I bought the first and subsequent issues over a couple of decades. Classic Car was followed on by Classic and Sports car, and it seemed that which the man in the street had formerly classified as old bangers, had become Classics with investment potential, so much so that a whole industry in re manufacturing formerly unavailable parts grew and grew over the decades, and with it businesses specialising in restoring vehicles that had become regarded as Classics, with specialists in many marques all leading towards that which it has become today.. Thus it seems much of the now Classic market was driven by BB`s disposable incomes, which grew and grew as their kids left the nest ( Yeah they did that once) and mortgages were paid off,creating a situation whereby BB`s in their late 40`s to 60`s could Invest/indulge in ever more man maths re the acquisition of classics, if that was their thing, perhaps more so if avoiding inheritance tax might induce those with cash enough to then create a collection of classics...?

The financial opportunities for generations following on behind the BB`s differed greatly from that of their parents and or grandparents..? Those subsequent generations were subjected to the drug of easy money, thus their lifestyle choices were expanded greatly, which of course affected the market in whatever they might regard as Classics, and all else. It seems likely that some BB`s may have sucked into the easy money deals, with remortgages and all else that maintains momentum in the giant moneygoround...?

All good...? Unfortunately BB`s are increasingly loosing their grip on the perch and are now of an age that seem logically to affect the market value of Classics in general, as BB`s financial well being may have been diminished somewhat in the passage of time, perhaps by acting as the Bank of Mum& Dad in a variety of ways over a decade or more.... Perhaps BB`spensions and "investments" so related may not be performing as hoped etc, etc...? The story seems well told in the TV prog.. Bangers and Cash, where many an old codger like myself, or their widows may have a garage full of memorabilia or one or two classics which he has spent money on over decades, thought to perhaps act as a hedge on inflation at whatever time it might seem wise to cash it in...?

Given the logical arrival of a time when the older or less healthy BB`s were dropping off the perch, perhaps began to show it`s face less than a decade back, though as ever the general public are perhaps slow to recognise and slower to react to change in general...? Covid perhaps acted as a turbo boost in values of Porsches and the classics more favoured by younger generational groups such as fast Fords, I suspect far less so in terms of classics that the BB`s may have favoured ...However that the Covid effect has now gone and the primary market effects seems to now be, not only the influence of BB`s, but also by the easy money years seemingly confined to history,(at least for a while) also to some degree by the recent UK budget, thinking of the knock on effect of EV driven legislation, E10 fuel complications for classics in general and relating to air cooled Porsches, the Russian war, and food /goods transportation costs re the Suez route complications, many of which may affect household finances in general, thus a considerable number of possible issues piling up to affect the markets not only in Classics but so much more...it is what it is... Shrug.

If you think the BB`s may not have much of an effect on the Porsche market, A quick look through the images and stories in Porsche Post, the magazine of the PCGB, seems to include rather a lot of grey hair...? If you wander around other Classic forums likely to have even more BB`s in their membership, they tend to report the sad passing of increasing numbers of their membership with articles or chat relative to the falling of the cliff of market values of their classics..? it seems they too may be increasingly frustrated by the devaluation of their classics, more so of the type once thought to have rock solid investment values ad infinitum..?

As I typed above my C4S has had multiple owners, these days that may be the norm, perhaps brought about by easy money and motor trade deals of many kinds to open short term ownership of vehicles to those who otherwise may not have had the wherewithal to previously afford such machines..? Whether the number of owners might be thought to be a good thing is oft times discussed, in the case of my C4S it`s service history and condition overall,at the time of purchase It seems still to look as good as new, to then be subjected to the 111 point OPC checks before being accepted on to the Porsche extended warranty..

Whatever, the market and it`s values were what they were, and now are what they are in terms of investments, as ever the warning is that the value thereof can both rise and fall... Just a pity for those who may have borrowed money for vehicles and may be under pressure to sell while in a negative equity situation...

Harry, if you have read this far what market value might you or anyone else attribute to my 48K C4S, in it`s lovely shade of Aqua blue metallic with my preferred silver wheels making the red of the callipers seem to stand out all the more. To my eyes it still looks as good as new, and has a full OPC history with a just added additional 3 years of Porsche extended warranty Insurance... It has most of the extras other than 15 way seats or the dash mounted stop watch.

Worry not on predicted values as I am not selling and I can deal with reality.... I think...(-:

 

[Harryblue]

lets open a Rolex price thread , waiting for a green submariner (year long waitlist with a 10K markup over list for an unworn)
Of course some posters will say the new rolex are crap and the one for 1980 is much better because it needs more winding

See this is what I mean.
There isn’t a year long wait list and this is what I mean about the sales myths, if you try and sell one you’ll be lucky to even get list price back, the 10k mark up is a swizz for the gullible, you’ll genuinely be very lucky to get your money back on what you paid in the shop.

The only one I had to wait two months for was my 2024 no-date Sub, I’m wearing it now, apparently they don’t make many. I asked in June and collected it in August.

 

[Harryblue]

I feel like this is getting silly now.

 

[Harryblue]

A bit of a BB`s personal perspective ramble on values over time..

Yeah for me the C4S GTS would be my pick of the 991.1 Harry, I just had to settle for a C4S in a blue hue, with my preferred silver wheels...


Worry not on predicted values as I am not selling and I can deal with reality.... I think...(-:
View attachment 109378

I think that’s gorgeous mate and if you’re not selling then who gives a hoot about values.

I’m only talking about prices to pass the time but it matters not a fig to me. I paid over the odds for my 930 but I can afford it and don’t care.

Your car is stunning and Catchpole reckons you got the best one with the best steering, so you’ve got the pick of the crop.