A bit of a ramble. on air cooled Porsches from the restoration of scrap, to restomods, brought about by IMI A`s recent posting of a vid on a rather fetching SC restoration currently on offer.. I think more in depth detail it may be on the Collecting Cars web site..?
Lots of info some of which I am a succer for... (-: As to the real world value now or in future of high end, highly priced or imagined high value Porsches, the core of which may be 30 or more years old... Hmmm..?
As a one time SC owner and big fan of "real" 911`s... (-: and the current owner of a 991.1 4S, I do wonder at upping the horse power on the likes of an old SC to more match current day rubber burning bragging rights, all on a 911 that could require a tad more driver input with it`s original horse power output of circa 208HP, and which could require quite a bit more involvement to keep those horses pointed in approximately the correct direction, relative to the limitations of not only 60`s torsion bar suspension, but without any on board clever digital decision making that is available on my 4S...? Not to mention the lack of other features that might cause one to enter and hopefully exit a corner without incident, and which motoring journo`s of the sixties onward made much of relative to the tail end fun to be had if one lifted off the throttle anywhere around the apex of a fast corner on 911`s of the time...?
Other than the above, that I remember welding in a patch to the outer sill of my 82 SC and repairing corrosion damage on the joint of front wing to scuttle interface on it circa 30 years ago. I do wonder what potential issues corrosion issues it might have today even if rarely used and locked away in a garage for most of the time, a bit like my C4S... sigh!
My first introduction to Porsche ownership was when I bought a 912 in dire need of restoration, once I had it home and started to remove the trim, it was found to be a rot box, that in time helped me to improve my rudimentary metalwork skills. I use the word skills loosely, but they improved with time to create a patchwork Porsche that was MOT worthy at that time.... Patches a plenty, none of which were obvious with a nicely polished few coats of "guards red" (indischrot/Indian red, for the educated ), it was a Porsche and it was mine... (-:
The 912 was followed by a real 911, a 77, though by that time Porsche had attempted to slow down the rot process by galvanising the monocoque , though it too had corrosion issues in time, as all old cars tend to have. The 77 was later followed by my SC, those three Porsches provided a great education in terms of sports car enjoyment, the 912 taking up perhaps a year or so of petrol-head hobby time, to bring the old thing back into usable condition, and eventually looking a whole lot smarter than when I bought it.
In terms of the initial thread IMI A replied to relative to the value of modifications or otherwise when selling ones modified Porsche.. The 912 had overly wide Wolfrace and flared arches when I bought it, and I fitted some new aftermarket sporting seats, carpets, cheap door mirrors which painted to kinda look similar to those on newer 911`s around that time. I made a pretty good job of the welding, cataloy shaping, and spraying it in my garage, to the extent all the repairs which were underneath the high gloss paintwork were not in any way obvious...thus my old rot box became a usable machine as opposed to being scrapped as many a car of that era and in that condition would have been with such a rotten monocoque structure.
In time I sold the 912 to make way for the 77 911. I suspect that at the time of sale the 912 still looked good, the Carlos Fandango wide wheels and flares along with the race seats may have been more in keeping with the seventies when I sold it, thus may not have affected it`s circa £2k sale price... Today I suspect the market might be a tad more sophisticated (-: and the mods would likely put most folk off...?
Old Porsches have their rust traps to be found in obvious places where road stones and general crud can be thrown against the under-seal by the wheels at speed, and cause wear or damage to the extent that further build up of crud can then hold damp, and the corrosion process will begin.... On the other hand there are places where air cooled can rot from the inside out, perhaps that process accelerated by condensation build up in closed sections as the result of heat build up, then cooling down..? As an example, hot air for the for the heating and de-misting system was ducted inside the sill structure on both sides of the 911 and the oil supply and return pipes to the engine oil cooler, mounted under front wing circulating hot engine oil, ran along the offside sill, covered by the outer sill cover....?
It seems even air cooled as late as the 993 might have suffered rot from the inside out, perhaps exacerbated by the increased complexity and heat generated in the exhaust system in close proximity to the rear chassis legs, to the extent that corrosion found in that area may not be too unusual...? It also seems that scuttle to wing interface corrosion may still be found in air cooled as late as the 993, perhaps down to body flexing at the junction of both...?
With all that in mind, I do wonder that restorers and retromod creators might be tempted to weld in the occasional patch to their multi-thousand, if not multi million pound Porsches, as opposed to all the work involved in fitting O.E panels to recreate the rear suspension torque tube point, where the trailing arm of the rear suspension`s large rubber bush can in time hold crud as it wears somewhat during it`s required arc of operation..... That particular point in the monocoque is far more complex than it outwardly appears, and somewhat complex to repair in terms of replacing whole panels to reconstruct it as original and as opposed to welding in a patch or two... Hmm..?
I suspect restorers or re-creators ,well know where to look for difficult to repair issues that may be found in any donor 911, thus those with torque tube rot may be avoided..?
When I thought to get back into Porsche ownership, air cooled seemed the way to go...until I checked the then market value, and considered all the above yet again, added to which, that Porsche had determined that no air cooled was designed to run on modern "E" fuels, and there was a possibility of issues arising if such fuels were used....? That was enough for me to go looking at more modern Porsches designed to cope with such fuels, and Porsches which were at a similar price point to that which a good condition air cooled might be, and that that is one of the reasons I came to own my C4S.
At the time of my 991 purchase the country was just exiting lockdown, and no need to type, that was not the best time to be looking for any sort of "reasonably" priced Porsche, and in my mind less so a low miles C4S in other than black white or silver, thus when a sparkling blue C4S cropped up on a dealership web site...I was smitten with the overall spec, pics and video, so bought without seeing it in the metal.... Lovely thing that it still is... (-: I blame Henry Catchpoles EVO test of the 991 C4S for seducing me to the wonders of the blue C4S.... (-:
For sure the C4S can corner as if on rails and could no doubt leave my former SC in it`s dust on my favourite tight and twisting country roads, however while there is a measure of input enjoyed using the PDK paddles, and that the sophisticated digital decision making relative to all that which is available in it`s very clever suspension and brake systems, which seem likely to cause me to think I may be a more competent driver than I actually am...... I suspect I might enjoy the road just a bit more with the sounds and required inputs of a good quality well restored air cooled, such as my SC was enjoyed or the 993 I drove over the same roads when it was new to market.....? Perhaps in reality I am just suffering a bout of overt nostalgia...? (-:
I have watched numerous vids on the creation processes of restomods and looked at many many adds for "restored" air cooled, which seem likely to have a few issues and which may just be expected to creep up in time if used on the road, even just occasionally in the UK today..?
One of the vids I liked was on Rennsport`s way of creating a restomod, the hope being that in their engine and fuel system "upgrade" they may have made an air cooled that can happily run on E10, given in time E10 may be all that is available, as may be the case currently in Europe...?
In terms of Rennsport`s engine mods, I have no need or desire to burn rubber as ably displayed by the business owner Paul, in his vid, thus a couple of hundred horse power for me in a torsion bar suspended 911 is likely to be more than enough, with the E fuel issues having hopefully been resolved....? However given a mix of my advanced years and the current UK availability of premium fuels, I suspect the E fuel issue seems likely to have little to no effect on me in my lifetime...?
Then after all that we get down to value projections, either real world or imagined values relating to the purchase and ownership of a "restored" or restomod air cooled 911, compared to a modern water cooled 911 derivative in a similar price range... and market trends not only for Porsches but classics in general.... Hmm..?
I suspect most of us will have a Porsche in mind that if money were no object, or if only we had perhaps double our present budget, we would be scanning the adds or hot footing it down to the dealership...? Restomod or GT2 RS...in my case... Hmm..?
Given the likely cost of a Rennsport restomod, as mentioned above, it seems likely to be well outside my budget, i.e. the likely total of which I might arrive at should I try to sell both my sub 50k mile C4S, and my old mid 80`s V8 crate with sub 40k miles on it....let alone putting up with all the hassle involved in trying to sell such machinery today`s market... Hmm..?
Even were the above to come to fruition, what chances after an initial period of excited driving, the "new" Porsche might end up much as my Porsche and it`s garage partner today, acting to provide a sense of fulfilled achievement in terms of acquisition, and enjoyed perhaps more as garage art, than on the road, which they were primarily designed to perform so well....Hmm..?
For sure I have and still know folk who have been precious about their lower budget Porsches, having scraped and scrimped to buy them, I admit to having been a bit that way myself in past times, and perhaps more so these days than in the past, given the relative value of my garage art relative to the purchase price of my property when I bought it in the mid seventies.... (-:
Hopefully the vid IMI A posted can be found below, and below that the Rennsport vid if interested.. and if really interested Henry`s fine EVO vid on the 991 C4S below that...
Lots of info some of which I am a succer for... (-: As to the real world value now or in future of high end, highly priced or imagined high value Porsches, the core of which may be 30 or more years old... Hmmm..?
As a one time SC owner and big fan of "real" 911`s... (-: and the current owner of a 991.1 4S, I do wonder at upping the horse power on the likes of an old SC to more match current day rubber burning bragging rights, all on a 911 that could require a tad more driver input with it`s original horse power output of circa 208HP, and which could require quite a bit more involvement to keep those horses pointed in approximately the correct direction, relative to the limitations of not only 60`s torsion bar suspension, but without any on board clever digital decision making that is available on my 4S...? Not to mention the lack of other features that might cause one to enter and hopefully exit a corner without incident, and which motoring journo`s of the sixties onward made much of relative to the tail end fun to be had if one lifted off the throttle anywhere around the apex of a fast corner on 911`s of the time...?
Other than the above, that I remember welding in a patch to the outer sill of my 82 SC and repairing corrosion damage on the joint of front wing to scuttle interface on it circa 30 years ago. I do wonder what potential issues corrosion issues it might have today even if rarely used and locked away in a garage for most of the time, a bit like my C4S... sigh!
My first introduction to Porsche ownership was when I bought a 912 in dire need of restoration, once I had it home and started to remove the trim, it was found to be a rot box, that in time helped me to improve my rudimentary metalwork skills. I use the word skills loosely, but they improved with time to create a patchwork Porsche that was MOT worthy at that time.... Patches a plenty, none of which were obvious with a nicely polished few coats of "guards red" (indischrot/Indian red, for the educated ), it was a Porsche and it was mine... (-:
The 912 was followed by a real 911, a 77, though by that time Porsche had attempted to slow down the rot process by galvanising the monocoque , though it too had corrosion issues in time, as all old cars tend to have. The 77 was later followed by my SC, those three Porsches provided a great education in terms of sports car enjoyment, the 912 taking up perhaps a year or so of petrol-head hobby time, to bring the old thing back into usable condition, and eventually looking a whole lot smarter than when I bought it.
In terms of the initial thread IMI A replied to relative to the value of modifications or otherwise when selling ones modified Porsche.. The 912 had overly wide Wolfrace and flared arches when I bought it, and I fitted some new aftermarket sporting seats, carpets, cheap door mirrors which painted to kinda look similar to those on newer 911`s around that time. I made a pretty good job of the welding, cataloy shaping, and spraying it in my garage, to the extent all the repairs which were underneath the high gloss paintwork were not in any way obvious...thus my old rot box became a usable machine as opposed to being scrapped as many a car of that era and in that condition would have been with such a rotten monocoque structure.
In time I sold the 912 to make way for the 77 911. I suspect that at the time of sale the 912 still looked good, the Carlos Fandango wide wheels and flares along with the race seats may have been more in keeping with the seventies when I sold it, thus may not have affected it`s circa £2k sale price... Today I suspect the market might be a tad more sophisticated (-: and the mods would likely put most folk off...?
Old Porsches have their rust traps to be found in obvious places where road stones and general crud can be thrown against the under-seal by the wheels at speed, and cause wear or damage to the extent that further build up of crud can then hold damp, and the corrosion process will begin.... On the other hand there are places where air cooled can rot from the inside out, perhaps that process accelerated by condensation build up in closed sections as the result of heat build up, then cooling down..? As an example, hot air for the for the heating and de-misting system was ducted inside the sill structure on both sides of the 911 and the oil supply and return pipes to the engine oil cooler, mounted under front wing circulating hot engine oil, ran along the offside sill, covered by the outer sill cover....?
It seems even air cooled as late as the 993 might have suffered rot from the inside out, perhaps exacerbated by the increased complexity and heat generated in the exhaust system in close proximity to the rear chassis legs, to the extent that corrosion found in that area may not be too unusual...? It also seems that scuttle to wing interface corrosion may still be found in air cooled as late as the 993, perhaps down to body flexing at the junction of both...?
With all that in mind, I do wonder that restorers and retromod creators might be tempted to weld in the occasional patch to their multi-thousand, if not multi million pound Porsches, as opposed to all the work involved in fitting O.E panels to recreate the rear suspension torque tube point, where the trailing arm of the rear suspension`s large rubber bush can in time hold crud as it wears somewhat during it`s required arc of operation..... That particular point in the monocoque is far more complex than it outwardly appears, and somewhat complex to repair in terms of replacing whole panels to reconstruct it as original and as opposed to welding in a patch or two... Hmm..?
I suspect restorers or re-creators ,well know where to look for difficult to repair issues that may be found in any donor 911, thus those with torque tube rot may be avoided..?
When I thought to get back into Porsche ownership, air cooled seemed the way to go...until I checked the then market value, and considered all the above yet again, added to which, that Porsche had determined that no air cooled was designed to run on modern "E" fuels, and there was a possibility of issues arising if such fuels were used....? That was enough for me to go looking at more modern Porsches designed to cope with such fuels, and Porsches which were at a similar price point to that which a good condition air cooled might be, and that that is one of the reasons I came to own my C4S.
At the time of my 991 purchase the country was just exiting lockdown, and no need to type, that was not the best time to be looking for any sort of "reasonably" priced Porsche, and in my mind less so a low miles C4S in other than black white or silver, thus when a sparkling blue C4S cropped up on a dealership web site...I was smitten with the overall spec, pics and video, so bought without seeing it in the metal.... Lovely thing that it still is... (-: I blame Henry Catchpoles EVO test of the 991 C4S for seducing me to the wonders of the blue C4S.... (-:
For sure the C4S can corner as if on rails and could no doubt leave my former SC in it`s dust on my favourite tight and twisting country roads, however while there is a measure of input enjoyed using the PDK paddles, and that the sophisticated digital decision making relative to all that which is available in it`s very clever suspension and brake systems, which seem likely to cause me to think I may be a more competent driver than I actually am...... I suspect I might enjoy the road just a bit more with the sounds and required inputs of a good quality well restored air cooled, such as my SC was enjoyed or the 993 I drove over the same roads when it was new to market.....? Perhaps in reality I am just suffering a bout of overt nostalgia...? (-:
I have watched numerous vids on the creation processes of restomods and looked at many many adds for "restored" air cooled, which seem likely to have a few issues and which may just be expected to creep up in time if used on the road, even just occasionally in the UK today..?
One of the vids I liked was on Rennsport`s way of creating a restomod, the hope being that in their engine and fuel system "upgrade" they may have made an air cooled that can happily run on E10, given in time E10 may be all that is available, as may be the case currently in Europe...?
In terms of Rennsport`s engine mods, I have no need or desire to burn rubber as ably displayed by the business owner Paul, in his vid, thus a couple of hundred horse power for me in a torsion bar suspended 911 is likely to be more than enough, with the E fuel issues having hopefully been resolved....? However given a mix of my advanced years and the current UK availability of premium fuels, I suspect the E fuel issue seems likely to have little to no effect on me in my lifetime...?
Then after all that we get down to value projections, either real world or imagined values relating to the purchase and ownership of a "restored" or restomod air cooled 911, compared to a modern water cooled 911 derivative in a similar price range... and market trends not only for Porsches but classics in general.... Hmm..?
I suspect most of us will have a Porsche in mind that if money were no object, or if only we had perhaps double our present budget, we would be scanning the adds or hot footing it down to the dealership...? Restomod or GT2 RS...in my case... Hmm..?
Given the likely cost of a Rennsport restomod, as mentioned above, it seems likely to be well outside my budget, i.e. the likely total of which I might arrive at should I try to sell both my sub 50k mile C4S, and my old mid 80`s V8 crate with sub 40k miles on it....let alone putting up with all the hassle involved in trying to sell such machinery today`s market... Hmm..?
Even were the above to come to fruition, what chances after an initial period of excited driving, the "new" Porsche might end up much as my Porsche and it`s garage partner today, acting to provide a sense of fulfilled achievement in terms of acquisition, and enjoyed perhaps more as garage art, than on the road, which they were primarily designed to perform so well....Hmm..?
For sure I have and still know folk who have been precious about their lower budget Porsches, having scraped and scrimped to buy them, I admit to having been a bit that way myself in past times, and perhaps more so these days than in the past, given the relative value of my garage art relative to the purchase price of my property when I bought it in the mid seventies.... (-:
Hopefully the vid IMI A posted can be found below, and below that the Rennsport vid if interested.. and if really interested Henry`s fine EVO vid on the 991 C4S below that...
If downright lies can be accepted as the new truth in terms of politics, then perhaps old can be accepted as new in terms of Porsche..?
