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Electric cars, the future. If it is were all stuffed!

Horses for courses. I can see the merit in a small car for short commutes and shopping trips. It is a tool to do a job, no passion.
Came over to France on the tunnel yesterday, was third car on the train, I thought I'd start my engine when I heard the two in front of me start up. One was a Tesla, one a Land Rover hybrid. The noise of a v12 starting inside a metal can made my day. I bet we enjoyed the drive more than either of them. They will remember what they did when they got there, we will remember getting there as well.

MC
 
I watched the episode of Dispatches on C4 from about 3 weeks ago on youtube last night. The truth about electric cars - basically echoing everything Easternjets stated. Also interesting to see the testing on VOCs from hybrids, which to me is far worse for the planet than puffing out a trace gas (CO2). Only 26 minutes long and well worth watching.

 
I'm glad that Baz and IanC4S both report a good experience with electric! Easternjets, your post should be compulsory reading for anyone contemplating a switch to full electric.

My wife's been running a Tesla Y for the last 4 months until her Audi A3 PHEV arrives in November - both company cars so I understand and appreciate the huge tax advantage.

We cannot wait for the Audi - read below.

We don't have a home charging point and rely on the Tesla charging stations. While these work wonderfully I am concerned they will be overwhelmed as the Tesla fleet grows. Also, they can now be used by other electric cars so demand will soon outstrip supply.

My wife does high mileage covering territory from Reading to Truro and Swansea. Every day we discuss where and when she needs to charge. And she has to factor in the time to go off route to the charging stations and the time taken to charge. This increases her working day - every day.

Quite how we accepted a Prime Minister decreeing that all new cars from 2030 must be electric...
 
Well he thought it was all nonsense until Princess Nut Nut came along with her green dream.
 
I think the one thin that really boiled my 'potatoes' was my other half phoning me at 9.30pm in a highly agitated state and then burst into tears due to the stress of it all as she was in a dark car park, late in the evening with nobody around to help her and no way of keeping herself safe other than running into a nearby hotel!
When I phoned the lady from grid serve and she said 'I'll look into it' I hit the proverbial roof.
The car was sold by lunch time the next day and it's now been collected and gone to some other poor disillusioned driver who thinks they are moving with the times.
As I said before EV's are the Emperors New Clothes - A joke that unfortunately has yet to be found funny.
 
Another one worth a watch, exposing what an absolute farce it all is once you start looking at the numbers:

 
Colleague of mine driving 500 plus miles to Scotland in his wife's X3 ev on Friday with their three children, he is very apprehensive before even setting off on their holiday.
Hopefully they will be ok but that will be a good test as to whether the car stays or goes!!
Rather him than me.!!!
 
Is that 500 miles in one leg of the journey?
Better allow for at least 4 charging stops and on a bank holiday weekend they'll all be queuing to charge up that's if the charge points are 'on line'!

I wouldn't consider any journey over 100 miles in an E/V and that's if the weather is warm and sunny. The worst environment for an EV is a motorway, there's no regen braking and your at a high speed 95% of the time.
Try to convince him to leave the EV at home and take a reliable diesel that'll do a 500 mile journey in one go.
 
I just bumped into this article and remembered seeing this thread here

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/pub...-as-experts-warn-of-more-trouble-ahead/279724

Prices on the used market do definitely seem to be ... tumbling

Used electric car prices caught in vicious downward cycle as experts warn of trouble ahead

Plummeting used electric car values are in danger of knocking the wind out of the sails of the new EV market, warn experts.

Speaking to Car Dealer, pricing experts and retailers say they are concerned about the dramatic drops EVs have suffered in recent months.

The falling values are already putting some car dealers off restocking electric cars and making finance – based on the future values of these cars – more expensive to obtain.

Advert

Both trade valuations firm Cap HPI and retail pricing experts Auto Trader have reported worrying falls in used EV prices in recent weeks.

Auto Trader said electric car values dropped -2.1 per cent in January compared to December – and this is against a 0.2 per cent rise in used cars in the same period.

Auto Trader's Ian Plummer said: 'The fall in used EV prices is concerning.

'It has the very real potential of impacting confidence in the equity of the asset consumers are buying, as well as retailers' confidence in their ability to sell them successfully.

'The real concern, however, is the knock-on effect on EV residual values.

'Since we buy circa 90 per cent of new cars on finance, we depend on strong and stable RVs to underpin the monthly payments we use to access new cars, all the more so since the price of a new EV is considerably higher than the average new petrol or diesel car.


'If used EVs sneeze, new EVs could catch a cold.'

Meanwhile, Cap HPI told Car Dealer that the 0.1 per cent rise in used car prices it recorded in January would have been 0.5 per cent had it not been for the poor performance of electric cars.

The trade valuations firm reported EVs fell -6.6 per cent in January compared to the previous month or an average of £2,050. It looks likely February will see similar drops.

As reported by Car Dealer, some electric car prices dropped by more than £5,000 during the month.

Used Tesla Model Ys lost 11.1 per cent, or £5,500, in January while one-year-old Jaguar I-Pace prices slipped by 10.5 per cent, or £5,020.

January electric car price falls

Source: Cap HPI data. January 2023 prices compared to December 2022


Mini Cooper Electric – down 11.5%, -£2,917
Tesla Model Y – down 11.1%, -£5,500
Hyundai Ioniq – down 10.6%, -£2,375
Nissan Leaf – down 10.6%, -£2,407
Tesla Model 3 – down 10.5%, -£3,825
Jaguar I-Pace – down 10.3%, -£5,020
BMW i3 – down 9.3%, -£2,489
Renault Zoe – down 8.7%, -£1,640
Polestar 2 – down 8.7%, -£3,595
Audi e-tron – down 8.4%, -£4,060

Cap HPI director of valuations Derren Martin said: 'EV values are continuing to drop currently and until retailers sell the stocks they are carrying and choose to purchase more, these car values will remain under pressure.

'At some point in the not too distant future, many of these will look reasonably priced versus petrol and diesel equivalents – some do already.'

Some car dealers have decided not to stock used EVs until the prices level out – helping precipitate the downwards trend.

Umesh Samani, boss of Specialist Cars in Stoke, and the chairman of the Independent Motor Dealers Association, added: 'EV has been worrying for me for some time and I'd decided not to buy any, so I'm glad about the current drastic price drops that I don't have a few on the forecourt.


'I believe the high prices have always been artificially high, maybe generated by the manufacturers to keep the RVs and customer confidence up. The current price drops are merely a realignment of their true current values.

Investigation: What happens next to used car prices? When will they start to fall? Or could they go up even further?
'Maybe once the market has stabilised for EVs, the values may start to go up a little as demand starts for them at realistic and affordable prices.'

Suzuki and MG dealer Robin Luscombe added: 'Used EVs increased in price significantly during late 2021 and early 2022, due to lack of supply of new cars, and I would suggest they will return to late 2020 values and depreciate in normal terms from there.'

Hendy boss Paul Hendy told Car Dealer he was treating EVs 'with caution', while Nigel Hurley, CEO of used car supermarket Carshop, said he thought there were a number of problems dragging EV prices down.

Both Hendy and Hurley will be appearing on stage at the forthcoming Car Dealer Live conference on March 9 at the British Motor Museum at Gaydon.

Hurley said: 'We believe everyone has been caught out by EV prices dropping, and now we are in a vicious circle of dealers having no confidence to bid combined with dwindling residual values.

'This has resulted in a huge, stagnant, depreciating swathe of stock that both customers and dealers are nervous to get involved with.


'Everyone associated with the trade knows that they will find a level, however, what is different to historic problematic areas of stock is that it's not only price we have to battle, but also a culture shift to get customers excited about this product.

'A further consideration is the reluctance to buy EV for cash in case another wave of heavy price reductions is introduced by manufacturers following Tesla's behaviour.'

Tesla drastically dropped prices of its new cars two weeks into January which has caused residual values of its models to drop even more than other EVs. The Tesla Model 3 dropped more than £13k in the four months to the end of January.

cap hpi - Current Values Movements 3 years 60K by fuel type

Jim Holder, editorial director of What Car? believes that falling EV values could undermine the transition to electric.

He told Car Dealer: 'Used EV prices plummeting has to be a concern – like it or not, the transition is happening, but it needs to be underpinned by a vibrant used market that is led by customer demand.

'Negative headlines permeate well beyond the trade – with the loss of incentives, serious concerns about the charging infrastructure, a focus on rising prices and concerns about residual values only serve to undermine that transition.'


Shoreham Vehicle Auctions boss Alex Wright also thinks the negative headlines are not helping.

He added: 'A lot of recent bad press hasn't helped the image of EVs. High profile headlines have been created by the anti EV lobby which have damaged consumer confidence in moving to an electric car.

'However, as more drivers get behind the wheel of a car, charging infrastructure improves and range anxiety becomes a thing of the past, we believe the perception of EVs in the new and used markets will quickly change.'

While the headlines certainly don't help, it's hard to argue with the fact electric car prices are falling far faster than their petrol and diesel equivalents.

Auto Trader's Plummer thinks more intervention is needed from the government to help drive demand.

'To help correct this trend, and to avoid more than just a small pothole on the road to 2030, more action will be required from both the government and industry,' he said.

'Encouraging car buyers into used EVs through incentives, marketing and education to demystify them will be critical.'

Motorway.co.uk founder and CEO Tom Leathes said that the rapid shifts in EV pricing recently had mainly been caused by Tesla.

He added: 'While rapid shifts like this can sometimes cause uncertainty, we expect them to normalise in the coming months, which will bring much more confidence to the used EV space, both for dealers and consumers.'

However, Cargurus expert Kevin Roberts said he thinks EV prices will be 'volatile' for some time to come, especially compared to petrol and diesel vehicles.

He said: 'The uncertainty around how to gauge the quality of the battery pack and the likelihood of needed battery replacement at some point in the vehicle's life creates pricing uncertainty.

'Recent OEM price cuts have created another level of pricing uncertainty in the EV space.'
 
Also!!
A local firefighter I was chatting to told me last weekend that they have been out on several 'shouts" to fires in electric cars and scooters.
They have been supplied I understand with a special car cover to as a minimum contain a car fire as they can't put it out. He advised don't park an ev in your internal garage.
 
benoniboksburg said:
The answer to all of this is Synthetic Petrol !


The EU have already lifted the ICE ban to enable manufacturers to do this. Rishi needs to follow suit. No doubt as the time gets nearer they'll modify the law again and allow fossil fuel ICE so long as it falls within newer 'green' limits:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ice-cars-may-continue-eu-after-2035-e-fuels-exemption

EU have form for doing that - the other year they recategorised Gas as 'green energy'.

If folk really think Governments of the world can function without the taxation from fossil fuel, they're as deluded as the ones who think CO2 is the control knob for temperature.
 
As the founder of a PORSCHE BUSINESS specialising in engine remanufacturing and performance upgrades, you might wonder why I previously posted my support for our all-electric car. So firstly I'd like to add to the comments I made earlier about how much we love the Peugeot 2008GT and how just about perfect it is for LOCAL DRIVING – plug in recharge – not expensive and not polluting the atmosphere for our grandchildren to choke on. Yes it is no good for distance driving and the mileage quoted is at 30 mph not motorway speeds. As long as you realise what it is best at (and many people have a family car only used locally) there is nothing wrong with it.

However – I wonder how many of you also realise that we @ Hartech have for the last 3 years been pioneering an amazing solution to improve the economy (and therefore reduce the emissions) of the gasoline powered cars we all love (and that makes them faster and more responsive into the bargain as well).

So I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this topic (or of so it could be posted separately) as I think the subject matter is linked and relevant?

We managed this simple solution after discovering that a lot of the established science that everyone believes (including us originally) was actually wrong, most of the R & D results published are irrelevant and no one has addressed the issues of very high fuel consumption in the driving conditions we are all forced to use most of the time in preference to the 'tuning" of the cars for the very rare occasions that we want to go extremely fast (that results in very much higher fuel consumption most of the time we are driving them).

It meant we had to unravel misleading graphs and conclusions (that are universally believed) and proved scientifically why they were wrong (but you are always on a loser trying to persuade anyone their basic foundations beliefs are actually misplaced).

We have built several test cars (all fulfilling their objectives and available for actual driving - proving the theory) but finding the time to drive the around while recording and analysing data is difficult when there is so much else we need to spend that time on.

We are already achieving very significant improvements in economy but it is extremely expensive work when our micro company has to survive from income in a difficult business environment (with this R & D funded by the shareholders up until now) and so we naturally would like to find ways to receive some external financial support – which is proving almost impossible.

Government Innovation funding sources use established 'experts" to verify the technology - who still think the Sun goes round the Earth and reject the concept on grounds we have absolutely proved wrong while funding other projects that are not yet proven and have much more limited impact.

Large businesses express interest but want the final data before committing (that will take a long time at the rate we can afford to collect it) and yet all the established automotive engineers we have both discussed the concepts with, shown the scientific proof to and allowed to drive the cars agree it is absolutely astounding and right.

Crowd funding has been suggested (but I don't even know how to handle it or if it is likely to be worthwhile).

It would be nice to publicise the solution as well but then we would be asking magazines (and perhaps TV) to promote a solution that preserves the use of fossil fuel when there are some that want it abandoning immediately – so politically a mine field.

The 'Carbon" cost of replacing gasoline fuelled cars too soon is actually higher than keeping older cars running for longer -and improving their fuel consumption while reducing emissions is therefore a massive overall potential benefit capable of making a genuine global impact on greenhouse gas reduction.

So one the one hand we have a viable proven solution and on the other it seems almost impossible to fund it sufficiently to bring it to the attention of those that can make a difference.

Any ideas very welcome [email protected] – please headline E-Mail replies to this topic to me at the address below with 'Hartech Eco-Power Solution" - thanks.

Baz Hartech
 
Can I just address the part of your post regarding the Peugeot 2008. I bought the car after reading lots of articles about how good the car was in comparison to other EV's. I was told that the range was approximately 200 miles, I drove one, in I have to admit ideal conditions and it seemed ideal for what we wanted.
We even mentioned to the salesman that we would be doing a 100 mile trip to Manchester and were told, 'no problem it'll get there on one charge and then you charge it over night to come back' it was all lies!
The biggest mistake we made was we never had the car for an extended period but then unless you rent a particular car, nobody gets a car for more than a few hours, then your never going to get the real world nightmare of owning an Electric Vehicle.
The fact that they are being sold as a 'real' alternative to Diesel or Petrol vehicles is horse s@@t.
As a run about, going maybe 50 miles there and 50 back is just about the real world limit for these cars. Which in all fairness, for most people that would probably suffice.

As for the batteries, they're expensive to produce and the C02 from the mining process is incredible, not to mention the environmental disaster that the mining process leaves behind.
Most EV cars that are involved in an accident are immediately scrap, even the slightest 'ding' will result in the car being written off as the Insurance company don't want to be responsible for replacing a £25,000 battery pack, a battery pack that can not be effectively recycled due to the complex nature of it's manufacture.
Now factor in the fact that people are starting to realise that EV's are the Emperor's new clothes, nobody wants a car that can't complete a few hundred miles round trip, as mentioned the figures for cars are based on short journey's at low speeds and regen braking. Sitting on the M1 at 70 to 80 mph is the worst scenario for an electric car. Hence the S/H prices are crashing, the car I had the Peugeot 2008 apparently has lost over 25% of it's value in just the last few months.

As Baz says, we need to not just look outside the box we actually need to look into another box, one that solves the problem we have, rather than crating a new problem we didn't need!

Drilling for Oil & Gas isn't environmentally unfriendly as such, you drill a 30" hole in the ground or seabed and extract a resource that has been sitting there for millions of years. Using it is the issue and finding a solution to the problem is what we have normally been very good at.
 

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