Car prices?

[Harryblue]

I could write a lengthy post about how to invest and/or make money, but it's not why I joined this forum.

On the buying/selling cars thing, it's fraught with potential issues at the moment, for every unscrupulous dealer there seems to be at least one unscrupulous seller. E.g. there is a lad I've seen advertise his 911 several times recently on various Facebook pages, each time it's a different story about why he's selling and he's only owned it a few months, I'd be willing to bet he's found it has bore score, or something else unpleasant, and he's trying to punt it on.

I'm seeing a lot of cars being advertised that have changed hands quite recently, so there are either some indecisive people about or there are more than a few cars with issues getting punted around with people trying to sell on lemons and recover their losses. There is also a funny new "dealer" popped up, selling off his driveway and using ChatGPT to come up with outrageous sales patter, I bet he's buying low and trying to cash in, but I'd be surprised if his cars aren't riddled with issues too.

There are also one or two honest sellers, poor young lads usually who have bought cars and within months they're selling with honest descriptions of bore score.

Caveat Emptor.

 

[stuckmojo]

I might have already posted this, but I'm genuinely looking into buying a unit and buying up half a dozen or so 996/997s because they're so cheap at the moment. I'll take my time over the next decade putting new liners into them and making the engines bullet proof, maybe send the blocks to Hartech and then rebuild them myself, and then hold them as part of my pension fund until prices go north, which they surely must do at some point.

Does anyone think carefully picked 996/997s will be selling for less in 10-15yrs than they are now?

An early 997 manual will be a sought after thing. A 4S too. Not sure about the other ones.

 

[Harryblue]

An early 997 manual will be a sought after thing. A 4S too. Not sure about the other ones.

People (including me) have been talking for over a decade about the 996 exploding in terms of price when people realise what a gem it is, but I'm wondering if it will ever happen. I heard someone a few years ago say that once the Americans are allowed to import them then they'll go crazy, but I think that's happened?

The 997 is the right shape and has the right ingredients to be a genuine classic, but the stories of impending doom is crushing them.
I've been reading that in the states, where mileages are generally higher, the 997.2 is starting to get worse engine woes than the 997.1.

So who knows.

 

[Bigbaddog997]

The 997.1 market is strange, people are (financially) terrified of having to rebuild an engine in a 997, but no one seems to have a fear of a top end rebuild (or expensive corrosion repairs) in a 993, which could/will cost similar amounts. Possibly because of the much higher market prices and hence different buying demographic.
I wouldn’t say the 997 is underpriced/cheap as such, but we have probably seen the bottom of the market already. However I cannot see a 993 situation. The 993 was from a time when Porsches were essentially hand made in much smaller numbers, so supply was a factor in the price boom.

 

[gizlaroc]

I sold my 996 this week after it started to make a noise, no idea if it would be a few hundred quid and a bit of time fix or whether it would be £6k worth of labour at AMS, so sold it this week for £8k to someone who can do the work.
Life is short, take the hit and buy something else.

I had been looking for a 991, and got the go ahead from my darling financial advisor, but keep looking at 997.1's.

I just love them, prefer the interior of the 997.2, but the way the 997.1 feels (engine I mean) I just love. But, the old bore score thing has stopped me buying one.



However....

Going to see one tomorrow, Carrera S, 70k miles.

But it has had a rebuild already, not Hartech, but using Nikasil liners.


I get that I will be probably going through what I have just gone through with my 996 getting it feeling new, but I think I can live with that for a 997.1.

I could get a sorted 997.2 for the same sort of money, however, the .1 seems to appeal more.

I do think they will be looked on favourably in the years to come, once the cheapies have fallen by the wayside, people will understand the cost of engine rebuild needs to be factored in, and then they will be at the price point where they get properly looked after.

 

[Harryblue]

I sold my 996 this week after it started to make a noise, no idea if it would be a few hundred quid and a bit of time fix or whether it would be £6k worth of labour at AMS, so sold it this week for £8k to someone who can do the work.
Life is short, take the hit and buy something else.

I had been looking for a 991, and got the go ahead from my darling financial advisor, but keep looking at 997.1's.

I just love them, prefer the interior of the 997.2, but the way the 997.1 feels (engine I mean) I just love. But, the old bore score thing has stopped me buying one.



However....

Going to see one tomorrow, Carrera S, 70k miles.

But it has had a rebuild already, not Hartech, but using their Nikasil liners.


I get that I will be probably going through what I have just gone through with my 996 getting it feeling new, but I think I can live with that for a 997.1.

I could get a sorted 997.2 for the same sort of money, however, the .1 seems to appeal more.

I do think they will be looked on favourably in the years to come, once the cheapies have fallen by the wayside, people will understand the cost of engine rebuild needs to be factored in, and then they will be at the price point where they get properly looked after.

I’m the same usually, take the hit and move on, it’s only money, but £8k! That’s bordering on criminal

I didn’t know Hartech supply their liners? I thought their thing was they insist on fitting them themselves so they can be sure of it being done properly? The idea being that they don’t want to supply their parts and reputation and then have it fail because it wasn’t done properly.

You seem like a switched on bloke so I’m not being condescending but check very carefully, just a few days ago me and a mate caught someone claiming a full rebuild by a well known name and it wasn’t, it was just a couple of internal parts replaced and then the engine put back together with most of the old stuff.

Both my 930 and 996 claim engine rebuilds in their history but the 930 was put back together using as much of the old stuff as possible including all the old hoses, lines, etc and the 996 only had a couple of things replaced, upon tear down it was clear most of it was the original parts put back together.
Both are now costing me proper money to do proper rebuilds.

 

[Bigbaddog997]

I’m the same usually, take the hit and move on, it’s only money, but £8k! That’s bordering on criminal

I didn’t know Hartech supply their liners? I thought their thing was they insist on fitting them themselves so they can be sure of it being done properly? The idea being that they don’t want to supply their parts and reputation and then have it fail because it wasn’t done properly.

You seem like a switched on bloke so I’m not being condescending but check very carefully, just a few days ago me and a mate caught someone claiming a full rebuild by a well known name and it wasn’t, it was just a couple of internal parts replaced and then the engine put back together with most of the old stuff.

Both my 930 and 996 claim engine rebuilds in their history but the 930 was put back together using as much of the old stuff as possible including all the old hoses, lines, etc and the 996 only had a couple of things replaced, upon tear down it was clear most of it was the original parts put back together.
Both are now costing me proper money to do proper rebuilds.

Hartech will fit the liners into a supplied block for other indies or individuals doing the work themselves, but won’t supply the liners on their own.

 

[gizlaroc]

Sorry, I meant using the guys who did the rebuilds nikasil liners, not Hartech liners.

Mind you, I don't actually know until I have seen the paperwork. It may well be that they sent the blocks off.

It took 12 weeks to do it all.


Yeah, I see a lot of 'rebuilt' cars advertised and I think the term is used incredibly loosely.

However, I do also think it depends on the engine.


I would say this is a basic rebuild, this is what AMS and Hartech offer for £4800...



• Engine Removal / Dismantle / Component Clean

• Damage / Components Assessed - Customer Consulted

• Con Rods Inspected For Wear, Cleaned and Honed as Necessary

• Crankshaft Cleaned, Measured and Reground as Necessary

• Cylinder Bores Inspected For Wear / Damage.

• New Con Rod Bearings (Everytime)

• Hydraulic Lifters Cleaned, Drained, Primed / Replaced as Necessary

• New Piston Rings (6 Cylinders)

• New Cam Chain Kits

• All Valves Cleaned and Reground – Valve Seats Recut as Necessary

• New Valve Stem Seals

• All Seals Within Engine Block

• New Head Bolts

• Conrod Bolts

• Cylinder Heads Skimmed

• Cylinder Heads Pressure Tested

• New Cylinder Head Gaskets

• New Engine Oil and Filter

• New Air Filter

• New Air / Oil Separator

• New IMS Shaft Bearing

• New Power Steering Fluid

• Air Conditioning Regas (Where Installed)

• 6 x New Spark Plugs

• Engine Reinstalled With New Oil and Coolant

• Vehicle Road Tested and Checked Fault Checked

• Engine Build Documents / Build Photos Saved To USB Memory Stick For Customer



However, if talking about 3.6 and 3.8 engines, then you would expect new liners fitted too.

Also, if I saw an invoice for new liners and any of the above not done then what's the point?




The car is actually a good price, but I am expecting to throw another £5-8k at it sto get it how I want it, mechanically. That will take it to 997.2 price and even 991 price.

But I just think as a long term ownership experience, and a 3rd car, there is something about the 997.1 that makes a lot of sense.

I can easily change the bits I don't like as much, like the silver climate controls and head unit, newer steering wheel, it is not that tricky to put on 997.2 rear lights and bumper. But I couldn't get a 997.2 and put the early non DFI engine in.


But, my long winded, bumbling point being, yeah, I think the 997.1 cars will be highly sought after going forward.

They really do feel like the end of an era and offer something different, not necessarily better, than what came after.

 

[Bigbaddog997]

Sorry, I meant using the guys who did the rebuilds nikasil liners, not Hartech liners.

Mind you, I don't actually know until I have seen the paperwork. It may well be that they sent the blocks off.

It took 12 weeks to do it all.


Yeah, I see a lot of 'rebuilt' cars advertised and I think the term is used incredibly loosely.

However, I do also think it depends on the engine.


I would say this is a basic rebuild, this is what AMS and Hartech offer for £4800...



• Engine Removal / Dismantle / Component Clean

• Damage / Components Assessed - Customer Consulted

• Con Rods Inspected For Wear, Cleaned and Honed as Necessary

• Crankshaft Cleaned, Measured and Reground as Necessary

• Cylinder Bores Inspected For Wear / Damage.

• New Con Rod Bearings (Everytime)

• Hydraulic Lifters Cleaned, Drained, Primed / Replaced as Necessary

• New Piston Rings (6 Cylinders)

• New Cam Chain Kits

• All Valves Cleaned and Reground – Valve Seats Recut as Necessary

• New Valve Stem Seals

• All Seals Within Engine Block

• New Head Bolts

• Conrod Bolts

• Cylinder Heads Skimmed

• Cylinder Heads Pressure Tested

• New Cylinder Head Gaskets

• New Engine Oil and Filter

• New Air Filter

• New Air / Oil Separator

• New IMS Shaft Bearing

• New Power Steering Fluid

• Air Conditioning Regas (Where Installed)

• 6 x New Spark Plugs

• Engine Reinstalled With New Oil and Coolant

• Vehicle Road Tested and Checked Fault Checked

• Engine Build Documents / Build Photos Saved To USB Memory Stick For Customer



However, if talking about 3.6 and 3.8 engines, then you would expect new liners fitted too.

Also, if I saw an invoice for new liners and any of the above not done then what's the point?




The car is actually a good price, but I am expecting to throw another £5-8k at it sto get it how I want it, mechanically. That will take it to 997.2 price and even 991 price.

But I just think as a long term ownership experience, and a 3rd car, there is something about the 997.1 that makes a lot of sense.

I can easily change the bits I don't like as much, like the silver climate controls and head unit, newer steering wheel, it is not that tricky to put on 997.2 rear lights and bumper. But I couldn't get a 997.2 and put the early non DFI engine in.


But, my long winded, bumbling point being, yeah, I think the 997.1 cars will be highly sought after going forward.

They really do feel like the end of an era and offer something different, not necessarily better, than what came after.

I think with time people purchasing a 997.2 at a premium thinking they are bulletproof will get unpleasant surprises.
Although at higher mileages and lower frequencies, scoring is being reported, and pdk failures can be costly.
In my view the premium for comparable mileage cars isn’t worth it.

 

[Harryblue]

I think with time people purchasing a 997.2 at a premium thinking they are bulletproof will get unpleasant surprises.
Although at higher mileages and lower frequencies, scoring is being reported, and pdk failures can be costly.
In my view the premium for comparable mileage cars isn’t worth it.

I don't know if I already posted this, but Jack Raby (he of FSI god-like status in the US) reckons he wouldn't own anything after a 997.1.

I hear that in the states, where the mileages are generally higher, they're seeing some nasty issues with the 997.2.

 

[gizlaroc]

Well I bought the 997.1

The seller seriously underplayed the condition.

The body work was amazing, wheels amazing, interior was still nice and matte and looked factory fresh (drivers seat a smidge of wear), not a squeak, not a creak from inside or suspension and it purred like a sewing machine.

It just felt right.

 

[andrews7889]

Well I bought the 997.1

The seller seriously underplayed the condition.

The body work was amazing, wheels amazing, interior was still nice and matte and looked factory fresh (drivers seat a smidge of wear), not a squeak, not a creak from inside or suspension and it purred like a sewing machine.

It just felt right.

Great news! I really enjoyed my 997.1S and was in top notch condition inside and out when I sold it with 100kmiles on the clock. Great cars - enjoy.

 

[Bigbaddog997]

Well I bought the 997.1

The seller seriously underplayed the condition.

The body work was amazing, wheels amazing, interior was still nice and matte and looked factory fresh (drivers seat a smidge of wear), not a squeak, not a creak from inside or suspension and it purred like a sewing machine.

It just felt right.

Delighted to hear that.
Think I saw the 996 advert (?ebay). Think you were very fair in the description and price.

 

[Bigbaddog997]

I don't know if I already posted this, but Jack Raby (he of FSI god-like status in the US) reckons he wouldn't own anything after a 997.1.

I hear that in the states, where the mileages are generally higher, they're seeing some nasty issues with the 997.2.

I honestly think scoring issues have not been solved until SUMEbore linings were introduced for the 3.0 turbo engines.
Toyota have used it for some time now and you only need to look at the mileages of their cars used as taxis.
Problem is there isn’t currently any Porsche engine exchange programs (recall it was £6000 in the UK some years ago) for affected engines, unless anyone knows better.
I heard of someone have a 991 GTS score due to faulty injector and the new engine bill was £28,000.

 

[Harryblue]

They really do feel like the end of an era and offer something different, not necessarily better, than what came after.

Yep I think you’re right and congratulations on your new 997.1, they’re utterly brilliant cars.

I keep getting tempted to go and look at something newer because they really are easier to drive as a daily, but I made that mistake before and aside from being too big, they’re also honestly boring to drive under 100mph or on a track.

The 997 is the sweet spot, new enough modern comfort but old school enough to feel special. I put ApplePlay in mine and then left it alone, I was going to mod it but I think it’s perfect as it is.