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BS and IMS advice sort.

Budweiser

Monza
Joined
5 Jan 2009
Messages
165
Advice please.. I am a new to me owner of a 204MY C4S 996. 73K one owner with a full OPC service history. The previous owner took the attitude, if OPC says it needs doing, do it so no expense spared. I have all the invoices for the work carried out for the life of the car.

I've just had a minor service carried out at OPC Colchester and a low temp thermostat fitted by Autostrasse, my local indie.

The car drives and sounds fantastic and there are no obvious problems.

Like a lot of owners I am concerned about BS and IMS so believing prevention is better than cure would it make sense to have the bores checked visually and if clear have a new modified IMS bearing fitted? Don't get me wrong I'm as keen as anyone to save money but an investment now may prove prudent in the future? Any thoughts would be appreciated

If I did decide to change the IMS what is considered the best bearing to use? And what are the likely costs involved?


Ps it has a manual gearbox
Thanks. Don.
 
The BS is something that should have beene explored prior to purchase in all honesty. If you have a warranty then well and good - you might be able to have a borescope done and claim if they are scored. IMS if it is all OK I doubt that you'd get that changed. I'm no expert on NA cars, but I reckon that to have the BS issue removed i tis a full engine strip and rebuild with new liners and people will consider having the IMS and other thungs such as timing chain issues addressed at the same time.

All this is big money - doubt if it will be less than £7k.

Maybe you might like ti discuss with OPC the options - they will not warranty it beyond the 10th year - so you are just on the shoulder of cover.
 
Hartech's opinion is, If the engine is running fine,leave it. If it needs a clutch, then get the IMS done whilst it's all in bits. The % of IMS failures in in reality small ( @5% I think), so you've a good chance of having a good engine. The low temp thermostat is a good start. I'm ordering mine on Monday.
 
Hi there,

My pennies worth,

Bore Score I tend to think of as a disease, it happens over a period of time, and there is no known cure, (except strip and rebuild) As you already own the car, I personally wouldn't go to the expense of a bore scope either, as all M96 & M97 engines will eventually suffer, If your C4S has been cherished, and not thrashed to within an inch of its life every day on the commute through the city, my opinion is that you should be fairly safe for many more miles to come, there are tell-tale signs.

IMS, this can be sudden, and without warning, I am not personally convinced by high, or low mileage claims of longevity, Porsche made some upgrades for the 996.2 (like ours) but I am going to have mine changed out as a preventative measure when I change my clutch, thus removing any future failures.

There are scare stories out there, and yes the are real, and costly affairs, but there are far more cars happily going about providing endless fun with relatively no issues to report, fingers crossed that will include us.

Happy 911'ng :thumb:
 
IMS, this can be sudden, and without warning, I am not personally convinced by high, or low mileage claims of longevity, Porsche made some upgrades for the 996.2 (like ours) but I am going to have mine changed out as a preventative measure when I change my clutch, thus removing any future failures.

The bearing was looked at by an OPC when the clutch was changed last year I believe and the seal replaced. I assume it was ok or they would have told the previous owner!

If you have yours changed what will you change it with as there are several alternatives to the OEM I understand?

Thanks all of you for your responses.
 
The IMS alternatives are the LN Engineering bearing which can be retrofitted
http://www.imsretrofit.com/ or if you engage Hartech to do the work I believe they supply a bearing of their own.

Scored cylinders and IMS are obviously well discussed and I've fallen victim to the former. I think it's more common than the IMS bearing failure having spoken to various Porsche specialists.

If I was in your position though I would do one of two things:

1) Leave alone, you've fitted a LTT so you're managing the risk and have your oil changed frequently. Keep aside £7k just in case something does happen. If it doesn't then you're quids in.

At some point you may encounter scored cylinders at which point your engine will need to be refurbished. You can then do the IMS bearing at the same time (kill two birds with one stone). My money is on Hartech, you only have to search and read Barry Hart's posts to realise these guys know there subject area.

2) Spread the risk cost by putting your car on the Hartech (or similar) Maintenance Plan. For a fixed monthly fee (which is affordable and decent value) You get your car serviced yearly, MOT and all labour charges thrown in, you just pay for the parts. At least you know that if something serious does occur you'll have the engine refurbished correctly.

Again, there are other extreme choices like selling the car and buying a Toyota but these cars are too awesome to be so dramatic.
 
As someone who has suffered an IMS failure and used Hartech to rebuild it, I'd agree with the advice above.

My summarised 2p,FWIW, change the IMS when you are next having clutch done or other major work (engine out etc) done. Regularly change oil (hartech recommends Millers - see other threads), warm up properly, build up slush fund, pray! Oh and enjoy the car and try not to worry.

Bore scoring - I think the analogy about a disease is interesting. You do what you can to mitigate risks but you will probably get some occurrence, it's just a case of hoping your not one of the unlucky ones that gets a bad dose.

As to the different types of replacement IMS, lots of threads, no definitive answers! I initially favoured the ceramic route but eventually went the other route as the ceramic one has a limited life. Maybe they say his just to cover their back but hartech are happy with the non ceramic and would be picking up the bill for failures for cars on their maintenance plans if it subsequently failed.

The above is for a non warranty car as you have more options. If you intend to keep a warranty then you might need to modify the above.
 
I'm going to be running Evans waterless coolant to guard against bore score..check the article "TECH: EVANS WATERLESS COOLANT
The 'silver bullet' cure for M96 engine issues" in 911 & Porsche magazine.. I've been thinking about doing it for a while and since I was told you don't need to do the low temp thermostat mod if you do this..I'm sold..really seems a no brainer to me. ..
 
Unfcknblvbl said:
I'm going to be running Evans waterless coolant to guard against bore score..check the article "TECH: EVANS WATERLESS COOLANT
The 'silver bullet' cure for M96 engine issues"
Really?
 
kas750 said:
Unfcknblvbl said:
I'm going to be running Evans waterless coolant to guard against bore score..check the article "TECH: EVANS WATERLESS COOLANT
The 'silver bullet' cure for M96 engine issues"
Really?

Never mind the silver bullet cure, what about the username. I've just spent 10 minutes trying to figure out what it could possibly mean :?
 
If it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is Unfcknblvbl ! :grin:
 
scottuk said:
If it sounds too good to be true, then it usually is Unfcknblvbl ! :grin:

LOL. I've just figured out what his name means, its wonderful how you cannot see some things with alcohol
 
Unfcknblvbl said:
I'm going to be running Evans waterless coolant to guard against bore score..check the article "TECH: EVANS WATERLESS COOLANT
The 'silver bullet' cure for M96 engine issues" in 911 & Porsche magazine.. I've been thinking about doing it for a while and since I was told you don't need to do the low temp thermostat mod if you do this..I'm sold..really seems a no brainer to me. ..

But if the thermostat is still an 83°C one, it will still only start opening at 83°C actual (before then it is closed to all liquids), and will only be fully open by 94°C actual.

Let me make that clear: if the thermostat is SHUT, no coolant is pumped directly to the radiators.

So how does an alternative coolant work if it doesn't circulate?

If it does circulate (fully), then you are by definition already at 94°C actual (circa 88°C low reading gauge temp, and with signicantly higher localised block temps, eg heads and coolant chamber eddies etc)

I'm assuming this new wonder fluid has been extensively tested on many vehicles over many miles?

Otherwise, one 996 that hasn't blown up yet in the first few thousand miles since running this new elixir of life, doesn't prove it is any better than normal vehicle manufacturer and coolant manufacturer recommended mixtures (in fact one should inspect carefully the statistics of any survivorship bias from the fact the engine has already successfully completed a decade of use and many tens of thousands of miles without issue prior to this new fill).

I bet zero manufacturers factory fill with this stuff, even though it is they that provide and are liable for both the original manufacturer warranties and the extended warranties

The OEM coolant is an absolutely fantastic coolant, and will do its job unerringly as long as the system works: correct concentration, correct level, zero leaks, fully pressurised in use and working pump.

What fails the later M96/M97 is the coolant chamber design and block flow and the too high average coolant temp (a compromise to improve NOx emissions)

I would also caution that once filled with this new coolant, it will always need to be topped up with the same and hence any normal garage will be stuck without a full drain, flush and refill back to conventional coolant if you ever need work done in the coolant system.

Steve Jobs thought vegetables and yoga would cure his pancreatic cancer, had he not waited months to find that cancer is better treated by medical science rather than hippy delusions, we might been saved from Tim Cook's idea of a smart phone.

Please don't make the same mistake of ignoring basic physics (and common sense) by putting your M96/M97's health in the hands of voodoo cures.

A no-brainer indeed.
 
GT4 WOW! You are on fire there friend, but absolutely correct. I particularly enjoyed the Steve Jobs analogy, do you write for George Galloway? :?:
 

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