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A Level case study

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21 Jun 2003
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Hi, im doing A level Product design and im currently doing a case study on the development of the porsche 911. i've already posted a couple of comments but i really need feedback on the statement of

"the 911 is a "drivers car" and the RR layout would be an advantage to people who want to the race the car as it allows for good handling and minimal torque steer."

i really need help for the experts as to whether or not this is a justifyable comment to make.

all feedback would be more than welcome and great use to me in completing my A Level and achieving my dream of been a car designer.

thanks

Jai Gill


Migration info. Legacy thread was 87805
 
i cannot help. I love my porsche, it looks nice and i feel that a lot of people want to beat me up for having one. I know it will go fast, but it scares me going fast. I am not mechanically minded at all. There are lots of books on Porsche which can help you and many websites of information.

ps: 'being' a car designer, been means you have been one already.

Good luck with your a level.


Migration info. Legacy thread was 87806
 
A few random thoughts-

What's fascinating about the 911 is that, really, despite its layout, it is a great drivers car- Porsche have spent many years honing it turning it from a quite scary car into something that even a numpty could drive very fast indeed without crashing.

I think what separates Porsche from the herd is the steering feel, which even with 4wd remains hugely impressive.

The key to your question is identifying why Porsche have persevered with the RR layout, why it is different to the MR layout favoured with most sports/racing cars, and why comparatively few are FR, with the exception of big GTs.

The key benefit of the RR layout is the traction coming out of bends under power. The disadvantage is power understeer, and lift off oversteer...

What is also interesting is how impressive the Cayman with its mid-engined layout is compared to the 911- something that Porsche themselves are painfully aware of.


Migration info. Legacy thread was 87819
 
hello again jamie... your monthly (3rd) A level case question...




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Do you guys think that the EU regs requiring car manufacturers to add bulk (and weight) to body panels has kind of helped the 911 to be more balanced. I can't imagine the engine is any heavier than it was in a 3.2, if anything these fancy new materials may have made it lighter.

Migration info. Legacy thread was 87824
 
Top 3 RR format pros:

1) better traction under acceleration
2) better dynamic balance increasing efficiency under braking
3) smaller frontal area for reduced drag coefficient

Other pros:
- easier engine access in time critical situations for fixing
- purer steering feedback as less frontal weight over axle
- rear wheels drive, front wheels steer - not one axle doing both
- more predictable moment of inertia compared to MR cars

Migration info. Legacy thread was 87873
 
defo a drivers car!



996 turbo


Migration info. Legacy thread was 100754
 
hmm

Been a long A level case study. Assuming you are using this as primary source data.

Get down to an OPC and do a survey with their permission, may be worth while.

Regards Alan




Migration info. Legacy thread was 101011
 
Jamie,

With regard to the 911's rear engine making it a 'drivers car': from an engineering point of view it is exactly as others have said - traction when accelerating (weight transfer to the rear, so virtually no wheelspin - even with 500+ bhp). And dynamic balance under braking, as weight transfer to the front means you enter the corner with a near neutral weight distribution (normally, even statically balanced cars such as most BMWs are too front-heavy if you turn in too early).

I'm not convinced about the steering feel though - I agree that this is a fundamental part of the 911 experience, but I think that's more a function of suspension geometry, using narrower tyres on the front, and steering gear design, than the rear engine layout per see... In fact I was advised by a Carrera Cup driver to completely fill up with fuel (front tank) for a track day to improve front end grip and turn in.

Hope that helps... feel free to ask any more questions.

I graduated as an Automotive Design Engineer (many years ago), and know that it's not that easy to get info outside that printed in brochures! Also as (currently) a product trainer within the motor industry, I suspect that you probably know more already than the typical salesperson at an OPC!

Just out of interest, what area of car design are you most interested in? I specialised in chassis and aerodynamics, but I suspect that electronics is where the money is these days!


Migration info. Legacy thread was 101017
 
There are several points:

1. Torque steer (as far as I know) applies to front wheel drive cars only. Since you have the drive shafts going to the same wheels that you are steering, you can feel some pull on the steering wheel, especially when the front wheels are not straight, when you try to accelerate.
This can be minimised by good design, but front suspension design is normally a packaging compromise.
So the engine layout on the 911 has no effect on torque steer.

2. Why is the engine in the back?
When the replacement for the 356 was considered, it seemed natural to continue with the rear engine layout. The company had experience of it.
Having made the decision, perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, they would not have had the resources to change it.
The first cars had handling problems due to poor production practices and control over the suspension geometry. 11kg of cast iron had to put into each corner of the front bumpers.
There was never an idea to change the basic layout.

So why was the 356 rear engined? I don't know, but I guess it copied the Beetle that was also designed by Porsche.
I presume it was a combination of packaging requirements and grip (since tyres were not so good back then).

Race cars are typically rear biased anyway with 65-70% of their weight over the rear.
The 917 Can-Am car with over 1000 bhp was considered to among the best handling, and the 935 which earned 4 World Championship titles for Porsche had 69% rear weight bias. But racing cars also have big wings, which affect the behaviour.
The advantage of rear weight is traction.
Out of a corner the sooner you can get the power down, the quicker you can pull away, and the more of your available power you can apply, the faster you will be.
However, I presume that your peak corner speed should be slightly slower than if mid engined, but by having wider tyres at the rear, you can overcome this.

I think having the rear weight bias may also help to keep the car flatter under braking, since you can setup the rear suspnsion to squat a bit too.

3. Good handling.
This is not so much down to the engine location, IMO.
You have good handling front, mid and rear engined cars, and also bad handling fron, mid and rear engined cars.
I think this is more affected by good basic suspension geomtery design, followed and optimisation of the components, such as spring and damping rates.
You might think it should be straightforward, but many manufacturers still struggle, and much of this area is out sourced to specialist consultant companies.

Having the flat 6 helps with handling though, since you want to keep all weight as low as possible in the chassis.

4. Driver's car.
What does this mean?
Good seating position, good steering/pedal/gearlever position. Without access to the primary controls, you will struggle to control the vehicle.
Quick response to inputs. The throttle should respond quickly to being opened and closed. This is done through minimising the weight of internal engine components and flywheel, keeping the engine under-square to allow free reving, good breathing both on intake and exhaust sides.
This also facilitates heel-and-toe changes and makes driving smoother in general.
The brakes should have good feel, not too much servo assist, with a progressive action and plenty of power.
The clutch should take up smoothly with good bite.
The steering should feed back what is happening to the front wheels. If you cannot tell how much grip you have, it is difficult and dangerous to drive hard. IMO the 996 (can't comment on others) has less castor than other cars, since the self righting effect on the steering wheel is quite small. I don't know if this is true, but it would help to allow you to feel what is happening.
Porsche steering is among the very best and pretty much their trademark feature.
You should get a feel through your backside about what the car is doing. This is probably best by putting the drive in the middle of the car. Look at where the seat is in respect to the wheels.

Basically, it is about how tactile the car is. If you make is smooth and comfortable, then you lose the edge.
It has nothing to do with styling features, like mesh grilles, two exhaust pipes, alloy wheels, red seats, fancy dials, or any of the other things the marketing people come up with.
But making a car that is focussed on the driver, requires some other compromises, which is whay not all cars are drivers cars.

5. If you really want to know about the 911 development, then you could start with Paul Frere's book "Porsche, 911 Story". It is excellent and will probably contain most of what you want to know.

6. If you want to do well in the car business, then I would suggest that you also look at the business aspects besides just the design.
The more rounded you are the better.
All jobs in all industries and affected by commercial constraints. To be aware of the these would help you in any interviews.
Consider why some manufacturers are more successful than others, and what challenges they face.

Migration info. Legacy thread was 101105
 
I'm not sure he's listening anymore... bloomin' students....

Migration info. Legacy thread was 101521
 

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