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993 Chassis: from GT3 to GTS ????

wfarrell

Monza
Joined
5 Jun 2012
Messages
219
Evening, all,

How does your 993 ride - are you happy with it on UK roads ?

The previous owner of my car spent a "not small" amount of money at Centre Gravity, having the tired OEM suspension replaced with KW V3, RS + 10mm ride height, full geo etc etc. The final bill was as impressive as the ride quality is uncomfortable. Wooden, unyielding, shuddering, jarring and a sense of corrupted steering (bump-steer sensation).

The car is really compromised for UK roads - a definite lack of chassis "flow".

So, I was wondering about altering the chassis spec to provide some suppleness whilst retaining good body control for "real world" driving. More Carrera GTS than GT3 (if you see what i mean).

Reverting the car to OEM sport suspension and 17" wheels is one route, but is there another way ? Some initial thoughts are:

- change wishbone bushes to "Elephant Racing" road spec to reduce stiction
- Switch the solid spoke 18" to hollow spoke to reduce unsprung mass
- reduce the KW V3 damping rate to increase compliance
- Fit a taller/softer spring set to improve primary ride...
- ...raise car 10mm to reduce bump steer and increase spring deflection range

Obviously getting on the phone to Chris at CG for some advice also a good idea, but i just wondered if anybody on the forum could also offer a few ideas, engineering thoughts, or the wisdom of experience ? Would any of the above ideas make a real-world difference - or is it a matter of lots of small gains ?

Any thoughts / comments much appreciated.

Cheers, Will
 
Hi will. My experience was, initially disappointed with car, fitted Bilstein b3 system and it cornered amazingly but bump steered terribly and bounced me off B roads horribly. After CoG it really flowed. Night and day etc etc. and it grips amazingly, drivers of a vantage and db9 both acknowledged this.

You could consider selling the kws as they surely must have a market as they are v expensive.

Unfortunately no knowledge of the incremental changes you proposed, from jackals writings they take some work to get right, as it's the whole that counts.

Anyway, good luck and persevere as it will transform your driving pleasure.

Tim
 
Will, I have a set of NB hollow spokes I could sell you, if your car is NB. :floor:
 
Hello chum,

I've mot driven many 993's, certainly not like some on this forum who have owned and driven numerous examples. I've got a bill that came with my car in 2008 from JZ Machtech Porsche, a renowned specialist. The previous owner dropped £2.5k with them for new springs, shocks, bushes and geo.

In my opinion, on the right road, the car is great. The ride height looks the nuts, loads better than other 993 I've seen some of which appearing vaguely 4 x4 like in the arches. It corners properly flat as well, making apex ing roundabouts quite enjoyable. I've never been on track with it, but I reckon it would do well.

I have come to realise that when you talk about ride quality you need to establish a valid frame of reference. Autocar stated, repeatedly, the the original Elise had " a saloon car like ride". I owned one of the first Elise's in 1998. It did not have a saloon car like ride. I would imagine the ride quality in Fred Flintsones car may have been marginally worse. But only marginally.

Elise a great car but, unless you are gas mask wearing, ball gag packing proper hardcore it's too much to enjoy on a drive much more than 75 miles in one hit, especially if motorways or fast A roads are involved. The steering is too informative and the ride could, kindly, be described as wearing.

My 993 is not that bad. However, I wouldn't call it good either. I've had use of several newer 911's and the ride quality, on 21" wheels, is light years better than my car achieves. Maybe that's what you expect when comparing a 17 year old car against a new one. In any event, sometimes getting into the family car often feels like a relief after going a few rounds in the 993'
The fact is our unremarkable, staid, 9 year old family car positively wafts along in comparison.

I'm sure moving to 17s as opposed to my natty 18 hollow spokes would make a little difference as may changing more suspension components, albeit at wallet shuddering cost. But I'm under no illusion you are going to get one of these cars riding like Sofia Vergara covered in butter. They are old and apparently the ride quality wasn't great when they were new. Short wheelbase, big wheels, stiff suspension etc.

Remember it's all about frame of reference.
 
M029 is more comfortable than my DD (and has the added advantage of stressing any trim components either)
 
Thanks for good advice guys -- grateful if somebody could decipher GT4's comment "M029 is more comfortable than my DD (and has the added advantage of stressing any trim components either)" ?

Given TMon's experience, it would seem sensible to get in-touch with Chris at CG and get his advice on the best step forward. It's not a "saloon" ride, more a "sorted GT" chassis for the (UK) road, if that makes any sense? Appreciate the comments about big wheels & wheelbase etc, but it would be great to "nudge" the chassis away from track towards a more compliant road-friendly spec.

Thanks again, and i'll let you know how things progress over the winter :)

Cheers, Will
 
Do you know what the settings on the dampers are? IME, people set the bump way too high. Try turning everything right down & you might be pleasantly surprised.

I have KW V3 on my GT2 & it's on practically its lowest settings. The car is great on the road, maybe even a bit soft...
 
wfarrell said:
Thanks for good advice guys -- grateful if somebody could decipher GT4's comment "M029 is more comfortable than my DD (and has the added advantage of stressing any trim components either)" ?

Might have helped of the "not" before "stressing" hadn't gone AWOL :oops:

Not as a direct reply to your original choice presented, but more an aside to softer, taller suspension, perhaps echoing to sentiments re: the state of UK roads and speed bumps etc.

More as a surprise to myself (a self confessed M030 addict, or so I thought), M029 is the standard ride height and firmness (softness).

Not only is is wonderfully compliant, but to my mind suits my perception of the car better. The less jarring ride vs the (generally) firmer sports options means less stress on every body part, but particularly interior trim, which can work loose, rattle or fall off!
 
One man's hard is another man's soft.

(I must have said this 1000 times by now :grin: )

My car is set-up in the way you have described yours.... and I wouldn't change a thing. But if we drove them back-to-back I am sure they would be very different.

You already know the best solution - talk to CoG, and then change the car with his advice. That may mean swopping the KWs, or it may simply be changes to existing setup.

TMin said:
...from jackals writings they take some work to get right, as it's the whole that counts.

Anyway, good luck and persevere as it will transform your driving pleasure.

Tim

This.
 
I forgot to say... changing the wheels will simply 'hide' your underlying issue (whatever that is).

However, having run most wheels on my stupidly low/hard setup, I would say that solidspoke 18s are the worst wheel, lightweight 18s are much better, but the absolute best wheel without question is an OE 17" wheel.

Cup2, Sports Classic 1, or Boxster makes no difference; the front wheels all look too far 'in', but the handling is fantastic with 7J fronts on 205-section tyres.
 
orangecurry said:
One man's hard is another man's soft.

(I must have said this 1000 times by now :grin: )

Mostly to the wife :dont know:
 
For what it is worth I'd go back to Chris at CofG.
I had my car set up with Bilstiens(from Gert at Carnewal), elephant racing bush thingies, and had the Porsch sports springs that came with my C4S. Set up by the local indi who looks after the Porsches I had and do own. Set to RS plus 10mm.
It looked cool and low and jumped around on our roads. I then booked it into CofG. Only extra was new engine mounts. Chris listened to how I drive and what I mainly use the car for. Took it for a test drive and then spent 12hours sorting it out. Can't remember what the ride height is now but it is higher and the ride is like a magic carpet. I drove home from his to London and couldn't believe the difference.
Now I wouldn't have anyone other then Chris set the car up or any future Porsche. Some I am sure would find my set up soft, but it works for me. So it sounds like the car has had the money spent on it but it needs to be tailored to you and your specific needs. Good luck and keep us put date.
 
Fulla said:
For what it is worth I'd go back to Chris at CofG.
I had my car set up with Bilstiens(from Gert at Carnewal), elephant racing bush thingies, and had the Porsch sports springs that came with my C4S. Set up by the local indi who looks after the Porsches I had and do own. Set to RS plus 10mm.
It looked cool and low and jumped around on our roads. I then booked it into CofG. Only extra was new engine mounts. Chris listened to how I drive and what I mainly use the car for. Took it for a test drive and then spent 12hours sorting it out. Can't remember what the ride height is now but it is higher and the ride is like a magic carpet. I drove home from his to London and couldn't believe the difference.
Now I wouldn't have anyone other then Chris set the car up or any future Porsche. Some I am sure would find my set up soft, but it works for me. So it sounds like the car has had the money spent on it but it needs to be tailored to you and your specific needs. Good luck and keep us put date.

Sounds like you've done what i need to do ! ...thanks for great info :)

Will
 
I imagine a reasonable comparison can be made from my days with an S2000. I managed to get a ride in cars fitted with both KW V3s and Bilsteins in order to compare against my Mugens.

The KWs were noticeably harder on the springs than the other two, and frankly a bit of a white knuckle ride on poor surfaces, the owner acknowledged this but had specifically wanted a set-up for track days. He did later concede that it was too much and had CoG take a look, afraid I never did get another ride for comparison but he said it was considerably improved. Probably Chris would be able to help you to.

I went down the M033/Koni FSD route precisely because I wanted a fast country back road car.
 
Sorry to go a bit off topic.

Just had a geo setup done by Tognola, very happy with the result. However I read that CofG is THE place to go. What is the difference between what they do and what Tognola provide? I presume there is a price difference too, how much should you budget for CofG or is it done on a case by case?
 

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