911 turbo

[clive]

im about to go and look at a 1986 turbo which will be my first 911.any advice on what to look for,questions to ask etc.anyone running one can tell me running costs,problems.

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[James Ball]

Hi Clive

A 911 Turbo as a first 911 is a brave step. They are animals!

If you are new to 911s then you should buy "Used 911" by Peter Zimmerman - it explains the differences between all the models of 911 and also gives advice on what to look for when buying one.

The problem with Turbos is that the extra power means extra cost. Engines don't last as long as NA engines because they are higher stressed so need rebuilds earlier (I believe that it is unusual for an early 911 Turbo engine to get to 100k miles without a rebuild) and there is more to go wrong (turbo, intercooler etc). Also the engine bay is more congested which means extra labour costs in removing bits and peices to go routine service jobs like valve adjustments.

Other "problems" or probably more fairly "characteristics" are the early Turbos had a four speed gearbox because the 5 speed of the time was not up to the job and because the turbo engine was considered to have sufficient torque to manage with four gear ratios. Also, the engine is seated a few inches further back than in an NA 911 so the car is even more "tail-happy". This combined with the somewhat brutal nature of the turbo means that you have to be even more careful in the wet. This is especially important as the engine suffers somewhat from turbo lag and is pretty much on or ff. Before the turbo kicks in it is pretty slow. This leads to big grins as the turbo kicks in to action and you hurtle towards the horizon but can be a nightmare is it does this just as you mavouvre around a roundabout or sharp corner! Also, driving a turbo (any turbo with significant lag) can get pretty tiring in traffic (due to the all or nothing nature of the engine).

Despite all of the above, secretly every 911 owener aspires to a Turbo!!!

Happy hunting

James

PS DO NOT BUY A 911 TURBO WITHOUT A PRE-PURCHASE INSPECTION FROM A PORSCHE SPECIALIST. If you buy a dud it is going to cost you big-time.






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[clive]

thanks for info james.the 911 is a 1986 3.3 turbo,115ooo miles but 10k engine rebuild at 90k.i will get an inspection but it does look like new.its from a dealer who is asking for £18000.ive been driving turbo cars for a few years now presently a subaru impreza preceded by sapphire cosworth,renault 5 and renault 21.i'll def go and buy the book you suggested.

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[James Ball]

Sounds like you know exactly what you are letting yourself in for!

Good luck with the purchase.

James


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[clive]

i wouldnt go as far as saying i know exactly but im afraid ive fell in love and maybe heart ruling my head at the minute.i must admit that a turbo wasnt in my mind until i saw it.still any advice or info on this model is more than welcome,particularly routine service costs etc.the car will be used daily but will however cover only about 4000 per year.

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[Woody]

I have a 1991 911 turbo 2. A slightly different animal, 70,000 miles, 5 speed. Sprung suspension etc. Driving it is a ball, under 3000 RPM not much boost but put your foot down and you can have wheelspin on demand in any gear up to 4th in the wet! You just can't have enough power!! Servicing at my OPC hasn't been to horrendous, even had new rear discs and pads, supply only at about £230 inc VAT. Fuel consumption isn't worth measuring though, if you have to ask and do high mileage you can't afford it! Best of luck with the car.

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[clive]

just wondering about fuel consumption really.i will use it daily but only cover 4000 miles a year max




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[clive]

ME AGAIN . IVE JUST HAD A CALL FROM SOMEONE WANTING TO DO A DEAL WITH MY IMPREZA TURBO.A 1990 964 COUPE(3.6).95K WITH FULLY DOCUMENTED HISTORY.WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK.I KNOW I'D FALLEN IN LOVE WITH THE TURBO BUT IS THIS A MORE SENSIBLE OPTION.

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[Woody]

Go for the TURBO!!! It may not be the logical decision but if you don't you will always have a hanckering as to what they are like! And after all you do like turbo cars. (by the way don't be tempted to play with the boost...).


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[James Ball]

Fuel consumption - depends on how heavy you are with your right foot. I guess about 20 mpg

964 vs 911 turbo. I am with Woody on this one. Definitely get the one you want. 964s are great, much-maligned cars. A much more modern drive than an '86 911 with not a lot less bhp (but a bit more weight). Also they have "proper" suspenision (coil-overs rather than torsion bars). The Turbo is definitely more of a beast.

If you do go for the 964 make sure you have it looked over because they have specific problems eg oil leaks, disintergrating distributor belts, disintergrating dual-mass flywheels etc which are damn expensive to fix but should already have been fixed. You have to be particularly careful with the early 964s, ie pre-'92, like this one.

If you are planning to do only 4000 miles a year the turbo sounds like a good bet.

On that subject though, 911s do not appreciate short drivers as the HUGE volume of oil they contain doesn't get a chance to get up to temperature. If your daily drive is less than 20 miles each way a 911 probably isn't the best choice. It will probably lead to nasty things happening like premature value guide wear.

James


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[clive]

going to see turbo again later today.please give advice on specific points to check both visual and when test driving.this car is 1986 being sold at £18k. rebuild at 95k costing £1ok.now covered 115k full dealer history.does price sound right




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[James Ball]

Hi Clive

Obviously there is quite a lot to look out for - in fact books have been written on the subject. Obviously books are no good to you at this late stage but for future reference you might find "Used 911 Story" by Peter Zimmerman to be helpful

I have attached a check list you can use when looking at a 911 (although it is not specifically aimed at the turbo). You can copy and paste it into Notepad and it should look fine.

What you should be looking for is the normal stuff e.g.

1) Exterior2) Interior3) Mechanicals

As a "layman" there is not a lot you can look for that you wouldn't look for on any cay e.g. panel gaps, rust, signs of accident damage under carpets etc. If it looks OK to you, and drives well (again the usual stuff of brakes not pulling, gearbox feels OK, turbo works!) then you need to take it to a garage for PPI including a leakdown test.

As for some specifics:

1) Panel gaps are quite wide on 911s but they should be even2) Check that a previous owner hasn't pushed down too hard when closing the bonnet or engine lid - either can dent the panel3) Check for rust around the bottom of the windscreen and rear screen (happens if glass is replaced poorly). Any visible rust is just the tip of the iceburg4) Check for rust on the tops of wheel arches, front & rear5) Lify carpets under bonnet to look for rippling or new paint - either is a sing of accident damage6) Lift carpets inside car for same7) Check carpets in front and rear foot wells are dry - if wet then leaking somewhere and bound to be rust8) Check condition of headliner. If saggy or water-stained the sunrook may be leaking9) Check condition of exhaust - expensive to replace10) Check for oil leaks - may be signs of oil but shouldn't be wet and certainly not visibly dripping. Have a look at where the car has been parked11) Check for rust around where suspension joins the car. Should be fine. If not will be expensive to fix12) Check each gear will engage OK. The gearbox will feel loose but you should be able to engage each gear without grinding.13) Engine will suffer from heavy lag (unless modified) but should pull like a train over 4000 rpm14) Oil pressure should read 1 one the scale for each 1000 rpm (approx)15) Engine should start easily and idle flat after a few seconds just under 1000 rpm16) Check there are the same brand/type of tyres all round - if not the owner has been cutting corners17) Ask the owner not to warm the engine up before you get there

I am sure I had missed loads but that is a start.

The list below should help you assess the car when you get home in the cold light of day.

Good luck and have fun

James

___________________________

Last-modified: Wed Jul 26 18:42:25 PDT 1995Version: 2.2

---------------------Copyright 1995, Wade Guthrie. Permission is granted to copyand redistribute this Document so long as it is unmodifiedand the copyright remains in-tact.---------------------

NAME/ADDRESS/PHONE . Car _________________________________ . . Price _______________________________ .

DATE:

== PHONE ===================================================================== VIN ____________________

Miles ___________________________ How Long Owned __________________ How Many Owners ____________________ Records _________________________ Where maintained ___________________ Color ___________________________ Last Paint Job _____________________ Interior Color___________________

Wheel sizes _________ Tire sizes _________ [ ] Original Color [ ] Original Engine [ ] 5 speed manual Induction ____________ [ ] Air Conditioning [ ] Alarm Radio ________________ [ ] Large Fuel Tank [ ] Gasoline Heater [ ] Electric Windows [ ] Electric Antenna Why Selling, Notes:

== RECEIPTS ================================================================== [ ] Carrera Tens'ners Last Overhaul ____________ [ ] Rebuilt Inj'n pump (mfi) [ ] Shuffle Pin (f) [ ] Dilivar Studs (f) [ ] Timeserts (f)

Compression 1:____ 2:____ 3:____ 4:____ 5:____ 6:____

== LONG DISTANCE ============================================================= Have the owner send receipts and pictures. If you can, have the owner send a videotape. The tape should cover the following: - Walk around the car, SLOWLY - Get closes-up (check for rust & mating) of: headlights, door seams (door closed), hood, trunk, fuel filler, - Get under-car shots including: suspension pickups (front and rear), jack receiver area, and tortion bar tubes (under car). - Interior shots (take-off targa top, if applicable). Get: front seat, rear seat, dash, instruments, console (if applicable) carpeting - Engine compartment - Trunk area (lift carpet around batteries). Have owner take the car to a mechanic. Maybe have owner take the car to a body shop (check for rust).

Check seams for evenness and for rust (portal closed) [ ] left door [ ] right door [ ] fuel filler flap [ ] hood (mating) [ ] trunk

Check for rust (under car): [ ] left jack receiver [ ] right jack receiver [ ] front suspension [ ] rear suspension [ ] headlights [ ] tail lights [ ] under windshield [ ] trunk area (lift carpet around batteries)

Interior (take-off targa top, if applicable) [ ] front seats [ ] rear seats [ ] dash [ ] carpeting

(RECEIPTS, MECHANIC)

== INSPECTION (bring magnet, ice pick, flashlight) ===========================Name ____________________ Phone ____________________ Car ___________________

GENERAL A B C D F Paint, chrome, trim A B C D F Rubber A B C D F Dents/Dings A B C D F Undercoat all around (e)

LEFT SIDE DOOR: VIN Drivers door jamb (post '69) ____________________ A B C D F Mating A B C D F Edge, bottom (r) A B C D F Hinge A B C D F Strike Plate (r) A B C D F Jack receiver (r) A B C D F Underside rocker panel (r) A B C D F Side windows & seals A B C D F Body under windshield (r)

TOP A B C D F Targa top seal A B C D F Targa top condition

LEFT FRONT FENDER: VIN Windshield post (post '69) ____________________ A B C D F Tire condition A B C D F Fender Lip Texture (a) A B C D F Fuel filler (r)

TRUNK: VIN (post '73) ____________________ A B C D F Headlights (pull out, rust & bracket squareness) A B C D F Cross-member in front of gas tank (been beaten flat?) A B C D F Suspension pickups under car L&R (r) A B C D F trunk lid: fit (r) A B C D F trunk lid stop (r) A B C D F Battery Box (r) A B C D F Front bumper - fit A B C D F Spare tire A B C D F Jack and toolkit

RIGHT FRONT FENDER A B C D F Tire condition A B C D F Fender Lip Texture (a)

RIGHT SIDE DOOR A B C D F Mating A B C D F Edge, bottom (r) A B C D F Hinge A B C D F Strike Plate (r) A B C D F Jack receiver (r) A B C D F Underside rocker panel (r) A B C D F Side windows & seals A B C D F Body under windshield (r)

RIGHT REAR FENDER A B C D F Tire condition A B C D F Sight along body (accident) A B C D F Suspension Pickups (d) A B C D F Texture on fender lip (a) A B C D F Pinch Welds (g)

ENGINE LID / COMPARTMENT: VIN Under hood (pre '74) ____________________ Engine number (vertical fan housing) ____________________

A B C D F General condition A B C D F Belts A B C D F Oil leaks A B C D F Transmission fluid leaks A B C D F Exhaust system A B C D F Rear Valence (accident)

A B C D F Tail & parking lights A B C D F Brake lights, signals A B C D F Backup lights A B C D F Seams/Fit (accident)

LEFT REAR FENDER A B C D F Tire condition A B C D F Sight along body (c) A B C D F Suspension Pickup (d) A B C D F Texture on fender lip (a) A B C D F Pinch Welds (g)

INTERIOR: [ ] Leather [ ] Sport seats [ ] Head Rests A B C D F Front Seats A B C D F Rear Seats A B C D F Carpeting A B C D F Floor pan/pedals (r) A B C D F Air Condonditioner A B C D F headliner A B C D F Dashboard A B C D F Seat adjustment (L&R)

== TEST DRIVE ================================================================ A B C D F Starting A B C D F Acceleration A B C D F Braking A B C D F Alignment A B C D F Steering 2 3 4 5 Synchros

A B C D F Clutch pedal free play A B C D F Brake Pedal Firmness A B C D F Clutch slippage A B C D F Idle (fluctuations) A B C D F Valve sounds A B C D F Clutch chatter A B C D F Other strange sounds A B C D F Blip throttle (miss=inj'n, _________ Oil pressure (warm) smoke=valve guides)

== MECHANIC ==================================================================Name ____________________ Phone ____________________ Car ________________Mechanic ________________ Phone ____________________

Everything required to bring the car to street-concours, itemized and costed

1:____ 2:____ 3:____ 4:____ 5:____ 6:____ compression (130-170 +- 15%) 1:____ 2:____ 3:____ 4:____ 5:____ 6:____ leakdown (< 3-5%, 10% max)

[ ] Numbers Match [ ] Engine number match [ ] Worn Valve Guides

[ ] Carrera Chain Tensioners [ ] Spring Centered Clutch (b) A B C D F Tie rod ends A B C D F CV joints A B C D F Ball Joints A B C D F Bushings A B C D F Shock absorbers/struts A B C D F Brake lines

A B C D F Structural Rust A B C D F Cosmetic Rust A B C D F Front susp. attachment A B C D F Rear susp. attachment A B C D F Torsion bar tubes (F&R) A B C D F Lower control arms (F&R) A B C D F Floor pan-(F&R) A B C D F Floor pan-battery area

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Resolution: VINs / Engine No. Match Rust Accidents Mechanical Condition

(a) since 1969 (b) 911SC only (c) check for accident damage (d) The rear suspention pickups are bolted to the pan under the car roughly aligned with the torsion bar tubes -- check for rust. (e) Fresh undercoat is bad. If you see it, check to see what mischief it covers. (f) These are not required if the car isn't a 2.7 liter or heavily built-up car. (g) Make sure the pinch welds aren't bulging or separating. (r) check for rust




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[James Ball]

Clive

I recently stumbled across some info on the turbo which you might (or might not!) find interesting:

http://www.porscheclubgb.com/uploads/registers/53/porsche_b.html

and this is great - loads of info:

http://www.porscheclubgb.com/uploads/registers/53/Handbook.pdf

James


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[James Ball]

Hey Clive

What happened with that Turbo you went to see?

James


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[Sarbs]

Unbelievable, James not being funny but are you sure?!?!
Just been looking at an 88 turbo 2, my dad is very interested in one and thought I'd have a look to see if I can help find him one. Thought I'd do a quick search to see what's been said about these beasts on the forum. I wasn't at all surprised to find that you had a near definitive pre-purchase guide for us laymen, did you grow up in Stuttgart? Going to buy the "Used 911 Story" by Peter Zimmerman and I've already cut out your post and emailed it to my dad, may also attempt to hire you later in the year when he takes the plunge to give it your blessing/condemnation!

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