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petefm10
Trainee


Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Keswick, Cumbria


PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: 996 4S - the next classic 911? Reply with quote

I hear talk that the next 911 classic will be the 996 4S (coupe and/or cab'). Because it's the pick of the 996 bunch in terms of looks and sensible power v engineering I think it will be. It will take some time yet perhaps but history shows the way for the 4S series.
It's a far better car than the 993 4S - and they go for twice the price at the moment!

Pete
 
  
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6186



PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlikely, only Turbo and GT cars in 996 series will ever appreciate, I think the best a 996 4S could ever hope for is to hold its value. The 4S looked good, and engineering was good, bar the engine, which was.... Not good. Which is where it fails completely when compared with the 993.
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Benji1975
Monza


Joined: 02 Aug 2014
Posts: 209



PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who knows...i doubt most predicted 993 values and then 964's would go the way they would?

Agree though, the 996 is cheap for a reason...I've bought mine and hope that it's price is 'settling' at the bottom before remaining at the point at the very least.

We shall see...

Ben
 
  
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clarkycat
Estoril


Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 3902
Location: Oxfordshire


PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 996 4S - the next classic 911? Reply with quote

petefm10 wrote:

It's a far better car than the 993 4S - and they go for twice the price at the moment!

Pete


Ah, but what were once monthly threads, then became weekly threads, and now, today, this very week, there are daily threads on 996/7 engine failures.

Now...

Go find a thread in the past year where a 993 engine has self destructed.
Dont know


That's why they are twice the price, they are the last 911 that was famous for all the right reasons.
Cool
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Mole
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 324
Location: Surrey


PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many miles does a 993 see in a year compared to a 996 though?
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Aandytvr1
Newbie


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 48



PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without a doubt it's the best looking porsche around.

The rear is just incredible

The look from front to rear is staggering good .

So a 996 C4S is the best by far ok exception maybe a 996 TT

But hey comfort , looks , service cost

Every porsche is an ultimate car , but some have presence

The C4S has this as so do others

So watch this space

Investment now will result in no loss at all
 
  
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ady117
Monza


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 244



PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 996 4S - the next classic 911? Reply with quote

clarkycat wrote:
petefm10 wrote:

It's a far better car than the 993 4S - and they go for twice the price at the moment!

Pete


Ah, but what were once monthly threads, then became weekly threads, and now, today, this very week, there are daily threads on 996/7 engine failures.

Now...

Go find a thread in the past year where a 993 engine has self destructed.
Dont know


That's why they are twice the price, they are the last 911 that was famous for all the right reasons.
Cool

so buy a 996 4s and have the change to buy two complete £10K engines, or buy a 993 4s... I'm only messing and having a giggle.. but I have to say the 996 4s are starting to rise a little in price, and the Turbo is a great car .... but i will say it agian.. it's a tad too much (too quick and too much power) for most, the C4s is just right for more people.. it's still quick and "not too quick".. it has nice long gears...my wife drives my n/a 996, I wouldent let her near a turbo.. and I dont think I'm on my own saying that.

Last edited by ady117 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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ady117
Monza


Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 244



PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mole wrote:
How many miles does a 993 see in a year compared to a 996 though?

Great point, done 6k in the last 8 weeks in mine, and I have really driven it well too, no pokeing around at 29 mph and in all weathers.. never missed a beat, had the back out a bit too !!! Very Happy
 
  
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RyDog
Silverstone


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 144
Location: West London


PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to agree. Non bias. I've bought mine as a bi-daily and it goes so well and being n/assperated, you get that vundabar sound only a porsche makes dropping slots from 3rd to 2nd to raise to momentum.

A porsche is a porsche. Everyone on here will double take be it 2000MY boxster or not (ok, pushing it I know wack - remember, that it and the cayenne saved our 911 butts).

On a recent passing trip to the factory, the 996's 4S is used as the show model in the latest €80 'sounds of porsche' , an A3 sized hardback book. With its broad classic design rear end, the 4S just looks really great polished up and parked or when passing by. Not great from one or two angles, but I'd easily say that about other models (with exception of a 997.2 GT3 RS)

I've bought one with the best possible provenance in mind. So hopefully it'll hold still in price, rise a wee bit or auto utopia; not lose me anything. As Terry Tibbs would say, Beauuuutiful.

And equally, sorted Gen 2 models creeping to and over the £24,000 asking price. First time since 2010 if I'm right?...
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scottuk
Hockenheim


Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Posts: 739
Location: Broughty Ferry

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haters always going to hate!

I no longer love mine, but still like it, my thoughts are taken more and more by a 997 T.
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alpinaman
Montreal


Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 521



PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the rubbish engine has put paid to any 996 NA becoming a bona fide classic.

I had a 4s for a while... and they look lovely. But in reality its just a a boggo carrera in a party frock.
 
  
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skinnedknuckles
Monza


Joined: 04 Mar 2014
Posts: 234
Location: Chester


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it has had the Hartech treatment then it's a future classic, if not it's just a liability
 
  
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churny
Nürburgring


Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 498
Location: Newcastle

2003 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As more and more 996 cars get either sorted ( Hartech etc ) or scrapped the really good ones will stand out.
Agreed the gt/turbo will always be more desirable, but I cant see many current 996 owners losing too much money long term.
There are plenty of older cars from other manufacturers now deemed desirable classics that at one time suffered from an reputation for poor reliability.
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5928
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the 996 4S being a future classic, assuming of course that the engine has been sorted out properly by Hartech or similar.

The main issue on the pre 996 cars appears to be rust. Is this just due to age or is it that they fundamentally changed either processes, materials or design to stop this being an issue on later cars? I would have thought that a pre-emptive engine rebuid on a 996 4S would cost a similar amount to sorting out common rust problems on a 993 or earlier car. After which the car should be good to go on for ever.

I have heard the 993 described as 'The last of the rusty 911s', but is this really true? What has been said about the frequency of 996 engine blowup threads could probably be levelled at the 993 for bodywork. A quick look at the first page of the 993 forum and I can see 3 threads which appear to be about rust. On the 996 forum there are 3 regarding engines, although 2 of these are relating to preventative maintenance.

I do certainly think that there is a stigma attached to the 996 due to the engine problems, which can be sorted out. The 993 has escaped this, I assume it is because all old cars rust. Except for course for the Honda NSX.

MC
 
  
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ScoobyDoo555
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 1281



PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to admit, and I appreciate that I will probably be in the minority here, but I don't actually like the c4s.

I don't like the body kit, nor the red stripe/hallmark.

If anything was going to be a classic, it would be the plain old C2. But dogged engine problems out pay to that!

Whilst I've got a C4 and would love to say its a classic, due to the 4wd, it isn't really. Dare i say, it's a safe Porsche.

The C4s is just a c4 with a "heavy" body kit.

No offence to the c4s owners but if I wanted a car with the show that matched the go, I'd be in a turbo. Not an aesthetic wannabe.
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wasz
Magny-Cours


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2503


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the M96 is done a huge disservice by 996 owners. It is an awesome piece of work, the power delivery, the soundtrack the torque, simply staggering in a road car. In these terms I'd say its one of the best production engines ever.

However it has some design and quality control faults (manifested in cracked heads / cylinders and leaking RMS in the early days now bore score and IMS bearing failure in later engines) which have unfortunately eclipsed this awesomeness.

Now there are known solutions to all of these problems. The early engines with faulty castings have probably all shown themselves by now, and as the 3.6's creep towards 100k miles if their IMS bearing hasn't collapsed they will show scored bores.

Most of these cars will be fixed with good solutions, and some tatty cars will be scrapped as they will inevitably be worth more in parts.

An early 3.4 with stronger IMS bearing and non-scoring ferrous coated pistons is a reliable car - mine shows 118k and is in rude health and some in the states are over 200k with no major issues.

A 3.6 with a rebuilt engine implementing known solutions to design faults will also be a reliable no worries car again.

Both an early 3.4 and a rebuilt 3.6 are undeserving of the ill reputation, and as the demographic of buyer shifts they will realise this.

If the world stays as it is - I think all 996s will be seen as classic and appreciate soon enough, but people are right to be wary of non-rebuilt 3.6s at the current price point - but as the value rises this will be less of an issue.

(In truth however I wonder how long we can keep driving these "dinosaurs" around. I expect petrol and diesel cars will be dead in the next 15 years for commuting and domestic duties. When alternative technologies like battery storage and hydrogen come "of age" fossil prices will rise accordingly through lower demand and carbon taxation - cars like ours will become collectors items rather than useful devices. Future generations will see us as outlandish and excessive with our conspicuous consumption of fossil fuels. So who knows where the classic car market will be in all this.)
 
  
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clarkycat
Estoril


Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 3902
Location: Oxfordshire


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mole wrote:
How many miles does a 993 see in a year compared to a 996 though?


It not down to opinions, it simply down to facts.
Smile

Most 993's are up to or near 100,000 miles now, many near 150,000, and nobody is talking rebuilds, failures are so uncommon you will struggle to find a story of an engine rebuild due to failure..

When all 996 cars get to being 20 years old and they all have 100,000-150,000 miles on the clock with no isssues to speak of, then they can compare themselves to the 993 in terms of durability.

But already that will never, and can never happen, ever.
Sad

The 996 is unique because there are few brands where the same years previous model (1998 C2 993) is worth three times the price of next model (1998 C2 996). Thiink of another example of that?


A flawed design does not doom something to not being a classic though. Many models of classic cars are riddled with issues. People will spend their entire ownership fighting rust, overheating and dodgy electrics.

They have reached a fix or not fix point for many, people are selling them broken. This WILL make those left rare. Look at a classic car show, Cortinas, Rover SD1's, these were common once but now all gone, only the survivors and looked after remain and they are classics due to this.

Confused
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wasz
Magny-Cours


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2503


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clarkycat wrote:
The 996 is unique because there are few brands where the same years previous model (1998 C2 993) is worth three times the price of next model (1998 C2 996). Thiink of another example of that?


Mk2 Golf GTI 16v? The Mk3 (and 4) is a bit rubbish. Ferrari 250 GTO....
 
  
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mcbit
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Posts: 445
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE


PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wasz wrote:
clarkycat wrote:
The 996 is unique because there are few brands where the same years previous model (1998 C2 993) is worth three times the price of next model (1998 C2 996). Thiink of another example of that?


Mk2 Golf GTI 16v? The Mk3 (and 4) is a bit rubbish. Ferrari 250 GTO....


All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health........
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3715



PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy Clarkson describes it as "a Carrera 4 in a he-man suit" in the clip below. The anaology on 7' 14" in the clip below perhaps sums up the 4S very well:

http://porschevideoblog.com/2011/04/top-gear-review-porsche-911-turbo-carrera-4s-type-996/

And of course no mention of that strong-as-glass NA engine in the review -too early.
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