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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: 993 Rear Heater Blower Operation and diagnostic Reply with quote

I have one fault left on my car to resolve and today was the day to fix it ! ......



Research into this proved frustrating and time consuming.

Whenever I work on a problem I like to fully understand what the problem is, why and the best way of fixing it.Google is a great tool but the problem is that when you are searching many years of internet information (mainly forum based in this context) often that information is out of date, not comprehensive and sometimes just plain wrong. The working of the rear blower of a 993 falls into that catagory (not least becasue it has two seperate functions). There are endless forum threads discussing when/how/why it should operate, how to diagnose / resolve problems etc..... but no one comprehensive, clear source of information.

It was also evident in my search that there had been a major issue with part of the system when fitted to the earlier 964 cars which resulted in major engine fires, warranty recalls and a new upgraded replacement part being fitted (and later used in the 993) ie there was a danger that not understanding what you were doing could result in an engine fire !

I was therefore keen to not only understand how the rear blower should function both as part of the cars Climate Control System and its other role to provide additional engine cooling.

In my search I have picked bits and pieces up from many sources. I have often forgotten where to be honest as when I started I did not think the search would take such a convaluted route. However there was one main source of base information which proved invaluable which was Tore's excellent 993 HVAC reference site:

http://www.bergvillfx.com/porschehvac2.html

However even here I found the explanation of the rear blower function confusing until I got my head around the system when linked to other sources.

So I used this as a base to (hopefully) give a more comprehensive and easy to understand explanation of the 993 Rear Blower functions, common faults and how to diagnose / fix them..........


*********************************************************
Rear (AUX) fan / Blower Motor purpose / operation and fault Diagnosis.........

The rear fan(s) has two purposes. (nb Turbo models have two rear fans):

1) To HEAT the cabin ie help blowing air through the heat exchangers onward to the front fans to improve the heating of the cabin.

The fan run at two speeds, and typically starts at mid temperature setting on the CCU (climate control unit on the front dashboard). The fan will run on low speed if the fan speed knob on the CCU is below 2. Fan settings above 2 will set the rear fan speed to high. Remember, the operation of the fan is also dependent on the temperature setting, i.e. if it's set to minimum, the rear fan will not start since no heated air is needed to the cabin. However, even on minimum temp setting, the rear fan could automatically be started by its secondary engine cooling function (see 2. next).

2) To COOL the engine / heat exchangers in two circumstances:

a) when the ignition is on and the CCU temperature knob is set to minimum and mixer servo flaps are closed ie min heat setting on CCU. The CCU supervises the engine/air duct temperature with a temperature sensor and runs the rear fan if needed:

- fan at low speed (40-45degC)
- Fan at high(62-57degC)

b) at ignition off by blowing the heated air out through two spring loaded dump valves under the engine. The mixer flaps closes to enable the fan to build up enough air pressure to open the dump valves.

- Fan at low speed if the air duct temperature is above 75degC, and shall stop when below 70degC.

The maximum fan run time at ignition off is 20 minutes. If the fan does not stop you might have a problem with the temperature sensor or the fan relay.



The Rear Blower Fan is controlled (powered) by a relay in the left electronic unit in the engine compartment.

The Low speed is done by switching a resistor (ballast) fitted in series with Relay and Fan motor.
This low speed resistor is mounted on the air duct beneath the fan housing to keep it cool (resistors get very hot so locating in the airflow helps to stop it overheating without having to fit heatsinks etc....), and it contains a thermoswitch for resistor overheat detection. This is done to protect the resistor and possible engine fire if the fan seizes or short-circuits.
This thermoswitch can fail over time and disconnect the resistor, thus no low fan speed. (part no. 964 616 550 02 nb the earlier part ending 00 did not have the thermoswitch to protect it and hence was a factory recall item!!!!! All 993's had the safer 02 part fitted)

Part 10 on this PET extract..






There is a method of resetting the thermoswitch but I would not recommend doing this however as the part is cheap (c£25) and the risk of the thermoswitch failing and an engine fire resulting is not worth it IMHO.
Nb make sure it is cool before attempting to replace it as it can get very hot! Also these MUST be fitted properly and secured ie if it comes loose it can cause an engine fire !!!!

Because of this some people us an additional Tie Wrap to secure in place Wink
nb I found the mounting springs on the new part secured it much better than I had read so this may be more a factor of how the plastic it mounts on is worn or not ?








The AUX/rear fan relay has been seen to fail due to excessive current, often caused by a seized or damaged fan motor. If the relay has failed the fan will either run permanently or not run at either low or high speed. If the fault is low speed fan failure only the fault will be with the low speed resistor and not the fan relay.

You can test the relay by removing it and either:

- swapping with either the oil cooler or air con condensor relays which are the same, or

- short terminals 30 and 87 to start the fan at high speed, and short terminals 30C and 87C for low fan speed. See the relay underside for terminal ID's.

Test the CCU control signals to the relay by measuring on terminal 85 and 85C. These will be grounded by the CCU at high and low speed accordingly. (plus on terminal 86)

The CCU supervises the rear fan operation by a feedback signal. If the fan is seized, resistor is faulty or its fuse blown, the CCU will produce a OBD fault code, and stop the front fans intermittently if the temperature control is turned up and heated air is needed. The defroster fan operation will also cut out shortly after starting due to the max heat setting.

CCU connector G19 and G1 are the blower motor supply voltage feedbacks.

In case of using a "RS duct" modification and rear fan delete, you will have to fool the CCU into thinking that the fan motor is OK in order to avoid the front fans to shut down. The simplest method to do this is to connect switched +12V to the rear fan terminal 87. (the relay can of course be removed)

***********************************************************


This is the original 964 USA market recall for earlier resistors which did not have the thermoswitch to protect the resistor from overheating:

AFTER THE ENGINE HAS BEEN TURNED OFF, THE REAR HEATER WILL AUTOMATICALLY OPERATE IN ORDER TO DISSIPATE HEAT IN THE ENGINE HEATING SYSTEM. DURING THIS OPERATION, THE RESISTOR FOR THE REAR HEATER BLOWER CAN BECOME OVERLOADED DUE TO A BINDING OR SEIZED REAR HEATER BLOWER. THE OVERLOADED RESISTOR CAN CREATE HEAT SUFFICIENT TO IGNITE THE PLASTIC AIR PIPE TO WHICH IT IS CONNECTED, RESULTING IN AN ENGINE COMPARTMENT FIRE. PORSCHE DEALERS WILL INSTALL A NEW RESISTOR CONTAINING A CIRCUIT BREAKER FREE OF CHARGE.

Vehicles affected:

1989 PORSCHE 911
1989 PORSCHE CARRERA
1990 PORSCHE 911
1990 PORSCHE CARRERA
1991 PORSCHE 911
1991 PORSCHE CARRERA
1992 PORSCHE 911
1992 PORSCHE CARRERA

*************************************************************

So now I understand how the Rear Blower should work I can easily identify that the low speed mode fault must be the resistor which has either failed or the thermoswitch has been activated. In either case I need to fit a new resistor. Fortunately this is cheap (c£25 incl VAT) and easy to fit. Whilst at it I decided in a fit of OCD (preventative measure) to also replace the temperature sensor which is another common part to fail with age (similar price and even easier to fit).

Its always nice to get new parts .......




Rear Blower Resistor with built in thermal switch....




I have ringed the spring clamps which hold it in place when fitted...





Rear Blower Temperature Probe





It is easy to see the temperature probe fitting when looking at the left hand side of the engine bay. The resisitor is tucked down the side but pretty easy to get at....







I decided to tackle the temperature probe first, simply pull off the electrical connector....




and then pull the probe out of the rubber mounting (nb a bit of a tug is needed as its held in by a rubber ridge)....




old and new side by side. As the old one was not actually faulty I'll keep it in my parts bin Wink





fitting is simply the reversal but can be frustrating as you have to push the edge of the probe into the rubber mounting to the retaining ridge. As you are pushing against rubber you have no leverage. I found it best to try to get one edge in the ridge and then rotate the probe until it all slides into place....

part of the probe in place....




rotated and all in place ready to have the electrical connector pushed back on....





Now onto the resistor......

nb. Please remember to do this with a cold engine as the resistor could be very very hot if its been in use!

It pulls free by just levering away from the mounting




It is best to pull it up with the electrical spade connectors still in place as its easier to then pull them off. They do require a bit of force as they have probably been in place for many years. The wires are colour coded so its easy to remember which goes on which connector.....




Fitting the new part is simple reversal of process, push the spade connectors on, clip into the hole from which you removed it.


So job done in a total of a couple of minutes Smile



Now for the testing to see if its works properly and the fault codes are gone.......

I'll be using my Bosch "Hammer" again for this. One of the main advantages of this piece of kit is that the lead to the diagnostic port is long enough to reach the rear of the car so you can see what you are doing when testing the part and you can switch parts like this on/off at the touch of a button.

I start by turning on the unit to clear the existing fault code....
















I then connect up the diagnostic lead and run a new full systems diagnostic and check for any faults. Fingers crossed there should be none....








So job done and fault fixed.......

but I decided to see the results of my labour in action.


So first what does the Rear Temp Sensor actually read






Next I wanted to see the rear Fan Blower working in both low and high speed setting......

As the sound of the fan running at two speeds is what I wanted I decided to take a video. Click on the picture below to link to the video




So there you have it. Not only have I fixed a common, easy to fix, problem for myself but more importantly to me I have a much better understanding of how part of my car should work and why Wink
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Last edited by jonttt on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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dommorton
Zolder


Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 5062


1998 Porsche 993 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better than my first shoddy effort I hope Wink

ps I'm falling in love with the Bosch Hammer. Its like having a new toy. Every 993 owner should have one. I spent 5 minutes trying to play a tune opening various air vents from outside the car Embarassed

I'll be leaving it in the car so if anyone needs a free diagnostic at car shows next summer just give me a shout on the day Thumb
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

800 posts Bandit

Given my first post was end of March that's just over 100 posts a month. I can't believe I've been so quiet on this forum, I need to pull my socks up lol.

A few months ago I was asked what my main criteria for a new abode was...... 2 bedroom, bathroom, kitchen and quadruple garage was my answer wack Anything more was just a bonus Wink yep you guessed it I did not get the quadruple garage Sad

It has been a busy year that's about to get busier with the new house purchase virtually completed. More room for cars and tinkering with a proper garage / workshop Grin so hopefully my toys will have a new home kitted out by Christmas Thumb
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 10271
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
800 posts Bandit

Given my first post was end of March that's just over 100 posts a month. I can't believe I've been so quiet on this forum, I need to pull my socks up lol.

A few months ago I was asked what my main criteria for a new abode was...... 2 bedroom, bathroom, kitchen and quadruple garage was my answer wack Anything more was just a bonus Wink yep you guessed it I did not get the quadruple garage Sad

It has been a busy year that's about to get busier with the new house purchase virtually completed. More room for cars and tinkering with a proper garage / workshop Grin so hopefully my toys will have a new home kitted out by Christmas Thumb


Thumb
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AndyS
Albert Park


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 1569
Location: The fast lane


PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
Well surprisingly the rear 20mm spacers are causing some slight rubbing on the inner arch. The inner arch could easily be rolled to accommodate but with the principle that any changes I make need to be easily reversible to OEM that is not something I want to do.

So I have ordered some 15mm spacers to replace them.



Jon - Have you got the 15mm spacers on yet? What is the outcome?
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not yet, been busy with new house frustrated

I'll get around to it in the next couple of weeks hopefully but not sure when I'll get to drive the car next to actually test them Sad
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got an early christmas present for the 993 today thumbsup

Technically the car is not off the road for winter storage as I've kept the road tax on but due to a protracted house move its not moved and is not likely to for some time (we have delayed actually moving into our new house until Jan 3rd whilst we continue to refurbish it). I do however feel a little guilty at not spending any time with my toy.

So when, following a moan about how much time I was spending looking at furniture, I was told I could buy something Surprised I did not need a second invitation. I may have stretched the intended meaning a little Question but I have yet to face that hurdle so am just enjoying the moment Thumb

I am a bit of a wheel whore with my BMW having 7 sets of wheels. To be fair they are all rare (due to their high cost when new) and desirable in the BMW scene so I look at them more as an investment wack

Now I love the Turbo Twist Hollow Spokes on my 993 but always like to have the option of fitting a another set (stops me getting bored with a car). I love classic split rims which offer plenty of "dish" over more modern wheels. These also offer the added advantage that they tend to hold their value so my man logic says I am not really spending any money Bandit

So not being a religious person and therefore reliant on fate it was logical that when a set of such wheels came up for sale at the same time as I was looking for something to distract me from furniture sizes that they had to be purchased.

I must admit I've not really had time to research Porsche classic wheels and so in some ways this is an impulse buy but there where a few factors in buying what I have ....

- I know the seller who has a good reputation and specialises in refurbishing split rims

- they are just the classic look I remember when I was younger and used to drool over

- the sizes seem "about" right to more or less maximise dish (gulp, not recommended to take a gamble on that bit but I reckon they will fit)

So here they are (rear on the left, front on the right and yes I do have 4 of them!) .....







They are originally made by ETA Beta (Italian manufacturer of the centres) but have been completely refurbished to with barrels / lips to give the following sizes:

Front 18x9 ET49
Rear 18x11 ET52

These compare to the OEM Widebody Turbo Twists which are:

Front 18x8 ET52
Rear 18x10 ET40

This means that they will "sit" compared to the Hollow Spokes as follows.....

Front -10mm inner clearance; +16mm outer
Rear -25mm inner clearance; +1mm outer

I have no real concerns over the rears as they will need the 15mm spacers I've already bought for the Hollow Spokes which will give...

Rear -10mm inner clearance; +16mm outer

I'm hoping losing c10mm inner clearance will not be an issue as its within tolerance for most cars but again I'm still learning about the 993.

The fronts are the bigger concern for two reasons. Firstly the offset of +16mm outer clearance. Again as I'm not used to the 993 this may be pushing it a bit but normally you are safe with +15mm over OEM spec wheels without considering suspension setup, camber settings, wheel stretch etc.... so I'm hoping this will be OK. Secondly is the 9inch width. The 4 wheel drive 993 already has relatively heavy steering so I'm not looking to do anything to make this heavier. Fitting wider front tyres would likely make the steering heavier so I'm hoping I can get away with the same fronts as I have on now (I think they are 225's). I may need a little stretch anyway with the offset ?

I'll not be trying these on the car or considering tyre specs for a few months in all probability given everything else I have going on at the moment (new job on top of house move Rolling Eyes ) but it gives me something to look forward to fiddling with in the new year.

I can't wait to see what these look like on a WB 993. They are very similar to the RH/Speedline split rims so I'm hoping they look as good / better with the deep dishes.
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Last edited by jonttt on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Dream911
Indianapolis


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2457
Location: London


PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the wheels Thumb

They will look awesome against the artic Thumb

Any good with photoshop to give us a tease?
 
  
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acamp76144
Trainee


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Belfast


PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any updates? Getting withdrawal symptoms

Should be picking my 4S up next week after a few tweaks (you are to blame BTW ) - RSR's, Motorsound airbox, HID's, Turbo S Ducts, Head unit change and some other TLC Smile
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jonttt
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Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frustratingly none recently from a combination of job change, house move and christmas ie the perfect storm to stop any thoughts of car tinkering frustrated

I have found myself over the past few days thinking more and more of driving the 993 though which is a sign I'm getting past the distractions Wink

Can't wait to get the car stored at the new house to I can tinker more freely this summer. I really want to try the new wheels on for size Question
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Paul_911
Montreal


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

acamp76144: I'm only noticing you are from Belfast - good to hear that someone is bringing a 993 to Northern Ireland as it's typically the other way around (at least 2 of ours are in England now)!

Would be great to meet up with a few others some time - I always appreciate a 993 - to say I'm a massive fan is an understatement! Smile
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Tombri
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonttt

I know you are moving house and are still to fit the new wheels but I really need to know if you have fitted the 15mm spacers. I suspect not due to the above but each time I look at my C4S I can't help thinking it would benefit from a set of these at the back (will probably leave the front).

However, I am not brave enough to order a set of them (and have no idea where to get them..........) so would love to know how you are getting on with them.

Tombri
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not had chance to fit them yet. I will post up a full photo report of both the spacers and new wheel fitments etc... but it is likely to be a month or so before I'll get a chance.
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9MLS
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

15mm adapters will fit on the rear but 95% of the time the arches will need to be rolled for about 150mm at the rear of the arch. Well worth it though, they look the dogs!
 
  
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of hibernation today......

First time anyone has touched the car since the end of October......indoor cover removed, battery reconnected, tyre pressures checked and............then remembered I had to remove the 20mm rear wheel spacers Rolling Eyes so 20min later........fired up first time.............ran like a dream Very Happy

I had a couple of meetings around Liverpool Airport today so could not resist getting the 993 out of hibernation any longer, sun shining, roof and windows open, glorious oil cooled smell and gurgle....still grinning

I'd forgotten how solid these cars feel, I spent a few moments just opening and closing the engine lid, sad I know but what a gorgeous, quality feel it has, makes my E class seem simply shoddy in comparison.

I've read with interest various threads on other forums over the continuing rise in value of 993's (and 964's) with the normal comments about how unjustified those prices are and how the older Porsches are not a patch on newer cars. Today just confirmed some people just don't get it. Of course an air cooled Porsche is not as "good " a car as a modern car be that based on comfort or performance, things move on but in lots of other ways that cannot be easily put in words the 993 is more a car than any of them Grin

I feel I'm back in 993 ownership, with a new toy to enjoy all over again. Just need to get my new garage cleared which seems to have been filled with possessions I never new I had Rolling Eyes
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jonttt
Long Beach


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a meeting over in Chester today and with an RS track day on at Oulton park I took the 993 for a proper blast to shake out the cobwebs and found time for a quick diversion on the way home Cool

Great day for the track with the cold air and enjoyed spending some time on the pit wall watching the cars being driven as intended Thumb

Great to have the 993 ready to rumble when desired after it's winter hibernation Grin
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: MOT Reply with quote

I put the 993 through its MOT at my local garage today.

Always a slight trepidation especially when its your first one with a new car and its had both an engine tune and HID's fitted .....

but I need not have worried, passed with flying colours and no advisories Thumb

Had a good chat with the tester (who pulled up in a smart BMW 8 series) and when I asked him about the emissions he stated there was more coming out of his testing equipment than the car Smile

I've got to get it booked into Unit 11 now for its annual service.

Its only due a basic service but will probably get the gearbox and diff oils changed as there is no record of this in the service history. No real reason for me to think they need doing other than typical OCD frustrated

I love my local MOT testing garage, a real old school outfit with bits of cars dating back 30 years everywhere.......


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1997 Porsche 911 993 C4S My Journal
2011 Porsche 987.2 Boxster Black Edition My Journal
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2017 BMW 740 Msport
2017 RR Evoque Autobiography
 
  
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6385
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After 6 months of winter, house move/renovation and change of job today I feel that I am back on the 993 tinkering bandwagon Thumb

I got the car out ready for a trip to Unit 11 tomorrow for its annual service and tackled a few major jobs Grin ......

Firstly anyone who has tried to fit any sort of "fancy" tax disc holder will know that the 993 does not like it due to the curvature of the glass Hand so I have had a generic flexible magnetic holder in situ. A nicer ebay replacement was in order.....



Apologies for the dirty windscreen Embarassed

Next I fitted a new steering wheel badge to my aftermarket RAID wheel. I had a gel badge originally which looked OK but replaced that with a metal OEM old style badge (the only small OEM alternative I think ?). I decided I wanted a none colour silver / black alternative so thought I would try this Ebay version (its a thin metal with sticky backing)....

OEM old style bonnet badge......




Replaced with this ..........





again apologies for the state of the carpets Embarassed

So happy to hear thoughts on the steering wheel badge wack Bandit

So just need to get the shed up over easter so I can clear the garage to store the 993, fit a hosepipe so I can wash it and find the boxes with my cleaning stuff in it Rolling Eyes and I'll be back in full 993 mode Thumb
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1997 Porsche 911 993 C4S My Journal
2011 Porsche 987.2 Boxster Black Edition My Journal
Ex 2014 Porsche Boxster GTS My Journal
2017 BMW 740 Msport
2017 RR Evoque Autobiography
 
  
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Jcx
Estoril


Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 3876


2010 Porsche 997 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:

So happy to hear thoughts on the steering wheel badge wack Bandit


Really? Honestly? It could barely be worse to my eyes... Sorry :-(
 
  
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