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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15338
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Tip vs Manual comparisons at 'having fun' speeds Reply with quote

Firstly, this thread is not intended to provoke a Tip v Manual argument. I just thought that I'd share some research I've done.

I had a 'spirited' drive on Sunday morning and it dawned on me when I got back that for most of the time I'd only used two of my cars five gears. Since then I've wondered whether I'd have used any more if I'd have been in a manual car.

Yesterday, after studying the 'Transmission Diagrams' in my Driver's Manual, I realised that the first, second and top gear ratios of the Tip' and the manual are virtually the same. I suppose this would explain why the acceleration times and top end speeds are the same.

The difference is in the middle, where the manual car has three gears and the Tip' only has two.

Given that most of the fun of driving a 996 is to be had between 4000 and 6500 rpm this means that Tip' drivers only have to use two gears whilst manual pilots have to use three.

i.e

Manual cars (4000-6500 rpm)

3rd gear = 56-91 mph
4th gear = 73-118 mph
5th gear = 84-137 mph

Tiptronic cars (4000-6500 rpm)

3rd gear = 62-100 mph
4th gear = 87-141 mph

My conclusion was that if I'd been driving a manual car last Sunday I probably would have still spent most of the time in 3rd and 4th gears.

Do manual drivers agree Question
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9269
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends what your route was and how often you had to slow down.

There is one particular twisty road near me that sometimes, just for fun, I go the whole way in third.

My car is so torquey and flexible, and revs freely, that it does it with ease.

If you do a track day then you probably do spend most of the time in 3rd and 4th.
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timpani
Monza


Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Surrey/London


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

find my tip is a good balance and when pressing on often use the manual switches to hold the car in 3rd or 4th rather than letting constantly jump straight to 5th the moment you back off slightly

if i had a manual i doubt i would use 5th or 6th very much unless cruising on a motorway and changing between 3 gears instead of up or down between 2 seems unnecessary so i think you are right that the extra ratio in the manual wouldnt add much to the driving experience on a fast country road


had an interesting back to back test of an Aston Martin V12 vantage with a manual gearbox and a V8s with the "flappy paddle" 7 speed recently and found the manual far more intimidating to drive swiftly than the paddle shift and also had to concentrate on the gearchanges far more in the manual (even though it could haul from 30 to 180 at a fairly rapid rate in 6th) which distracted from the driving far more than ***** a paddle through the gears

i am sure just as many savor the manual shift and feel its part of the driving experience to work the gears correctly

i just find the tip far more relaxing and fun to drive most of the time
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smigga
Imola


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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Location: Oop North


PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a side note, do tip users tend to use buttons in manual when having fun or just use D?
I do miss judging the engine speed with my left foot between changes but find the tip excellent and a very smooth way to change up/down in a blink! thumbsup

Dave
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JAD
Nürburgring


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 416



PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry

I agree, most of the time I'm in third or fourth.

I used to leave it in D unless I was on country roads as I found the tip adapted quite well to sporty driving but since talking to Hartech I now use the M setting almost exclusively.

The D setting tends to default to the highest possible gear, which is good for fuel economy etc but as Hartech expressed "it can be a bit too old fogey". There are two issues: one it tends to be in too high a gear if you want instant acceleration (yes it kicks down superbly, but there is a slight delay); and two, more seriously, it labours the engine more.

Because there is plenty of torque it will still accelerate but it will be trying to do it from quite low revs initially and unless you invoke kick down the tip probably won't drop a gear whereas in a manual you would change down.

I'm not explaining it very well but my observation is that unless the tip is in one of it's sporty programs it tends to be a gear higher than I would select. This in itself is not a problem (as I've said, helps fuel economy if your just pottering around) but, and I accept this is in part Porsche paranoia, it adds an incremental strain to the engine when accelerating from low revs.

Positive outcome from using M is I've got pretty good with the buttons.

Going back to your original question, I would like to hear from some more manual drivers as to what gears they tend to be in. Are they largely ***** between third and fourth?
 
  
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kenloen
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 120



PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

would be nice is to hear from a (honest) Tiptronic driver who has followed a manual car round a track and vice versa... were there any areas where either car left the other/ was too close and ended up backing off .. M mode or D mode... and if so what kind of corners, hairpins, fast sweepers.. long straights.. track times..
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Tinker
Albert Park


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 1551
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The D setting tends to default to the highest possible gear, which is good for fuel economy etc but as Hartech expressed "it can be a bit too old fogey". There are two issues: one it tends to be in too high a gear if you want instant acceleration (yes it kicks down superbly, but there is a slight delay); and two, more seriously, it labours the engine more.

In the year & a day and 12,000+ miles that I've had a Tiptronic 2 (Mercedes) in a C4, I've learnt to be quite pushy with it in D. In M, it does just what you tell it to do with the buttons. In D, once the engine's hot, the box needs a good kicking to put it one of the quicker programmes and then the willingness by the driver to keep it there. At two-thirds pedal-travel, the Tip can be remarkably responsive. That said, you can always do the job with the buttons, too, of course. The D & M combination works well.
 
  
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T8
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15338
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smigga wrote:


As a side note, do tip users tend to use buttons in manual when having fun or just use D?
I do miss judging the engine speed with my left foot between changes but find the tip excellent and a very smooth way to change up/down in a blink! thumbsup

Dave


'D' whilst warming up, driving in steady traffic and on motorways.

'M' for 'having fun'.
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ex 2004 Polar Silver 996T Tiptronic
ex 2002 Seal Grey 996.2 C4 Tiptronic
ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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T8
General
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Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15338
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenloen wrote:
would be nice is to hear from a (honest) Tiptronic driver who has followed a manual car round a track and vice versa... were there any areas where either car left the other/ was too close and ended up backing off .. M mode or D mode... and if so what kind of corners, hairpins, fast sweepers.. long straights.. track times..


I'd be interested to hear views on this too but think it would be difficult to get a complete picture from it as THE biggest variable is driver ability. It wouldn't take much for a good driver to make either car significantly quicker. I've been held up by Turbos and have had to move over for 944's.

What I'm pretty sure of however is that me in a manual would be no quicker than me in a Tip' in 'M' mode.

A Tip' in 'D' mode is a different matter. The only time that I was able to get my Tip' to perform how I wanted it to in 'D' mode was after a few hours at Bruntingthorpe, at 15mpg, by which time the auto was changing up at 5500+ prm.

I've done quite a few laps at Brands (Indy) in 'M' and have loved it . I tried it in 'D' and it was horrid.
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chimp911
Zolder


Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 5880


2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the change programmes on the PDK are much better suited to track use. In sport plus mode it is hard to see why you would ever need to use the paddles except for the occasional early upshift if it is proving difficult to get the power down cleanly.

After 2 epic tours this year around some of the best roads in and around the Alps and Scottish Highlands I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I barely used (or rather felt that I needed to use) the paddles at all... Grin
 
  
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T8
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General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15338
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So ........... when do manual drivers use their 5th gear Question
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ex 1978 Silver 924 Manual
 
  
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mazza
Österreich


Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 963
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread, I for one use my tip 90% of the time in manual mode as I prefer the control of the changes. And on nice sweeping A roads, the reality is that the gear change even on the "slow" tip is still quicker (and arguable a little safer as you have both hands on the wheel) than a manual.

But, I don't believe that people's choices are based on whether they perceive the car/gear change to be quicker... It's all about feel. IMHO with a manual gearbox you do feel mechanically linked to the car, and I ultimately i do prefer the ability to control the power with both clutch and accelerator.
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mrfastbaz
Imola


Joined: 17 Aug 2011
Posts: 860
Location: solihull


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'D' whilst warming up, driving in steady traffic and on motorways.

'M' for 'having fun'.

plus one
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Tinker
Albert Park


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 1551
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrfastbaz wrote:
'D' whilst warming up, driving in steady traffic and on motorways.
'M' for 'having fun'.
plus one

Nah, you're missing quite a lot of the fun. For example, controlling the Tip S gear changes with your foot at higher revs - a lot more activity than just a kick-down - and going fast (n+20) downhill into a roundabout, braking hard at the 2-bar marker and listening to & feeling the Tip change down and engine brake twice before you enter the roundabout.
 
  
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smigga
Imola


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 849
Location: Oop North


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not used manual that much so after reading this thread I thought I'd spend the day in M today, I actually really preferred it, I do find that D is usually a gear to high for me unless pushing on a lot, I think I'll be sticking with M for a while unless I'm on the motorway...

Dave
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timpani
Monza


Joined: 18 Aug 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Surrey/London


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think what this thread exposes is that if you use the M mode on a tip its every bit as much fun and a little bit cleverer then a manual in most circumstances (it knows what not to do without accidentally doing it first) and much easier to drive in town in D when you dont want to be bothered

still doesn't make it "better" than a manual but i really wouldn't want to go back to a manual box after a collection of autos on a number of different cars

the OPs point that 5 ratios is as good as 6 is true and the extra ratio in the middle doesn't add anything to the driving experience or make the car more fun

for me i purposely chose a tip for those exact reasons and when certain friends have said "you bought an auto sports car, are you mad?" this is the answer " yes, have you ever driven one?"
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Last edited by timpani on Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Tinker
Albert Park


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 1551
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smigga wrote:
I do find that D is usually a gear to high for me unless pushing on a lot ... Dave

So, you're actually using M to drive slower. Smile
 
  
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smigga
Imola


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 849
Location: Oop North


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinker wrote:
smigga wrote:
I do find that D is usually a gear to high for me unless pushing on a lot ... Dave

So, you're actually using M to drive slower. Smile

Indeed I am Very Happy

Dave
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petop
Newbie


Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use M all the time and i think apart from the 1st 2 days of owning my C4S using D, ive never been out of M. I always found that the gearbox wanted to change too early in D and even though i went the "auto" route, i still wanted to tell the car when to change gear.
 
  
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JAD
Nürburgring


Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Posts: 416



PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The auto box in D is still pretty amazing. i just find that it needs a bit of a prod to get it into a sporty programme (which to be fair doesn't take much effort). Once it does then it's excellent fun.

I'd agree with some of the earlier comments that being able to keep both hands on the wheel while changing gear is an advantage but that I don't feel quite as connected with the car as when using my left foot.

It's not a case of better (manual v tip) just different - horses for courses.

I'd still be interested in hearing from more manual drivers. As to what gears they spend most of their time in. Perhaps driving the tip (and the little red light) means you have to be more aware of the gear. Maybe a different thread topic is needed to draw out comments.
 
  
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