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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Possible engine problem Major or Minor Reply with quote

I was at The Supercar Event today and managed to get on the track through a friend. I was taking one of the Celeb guests out in my car when the engine stopped and all the dash lights came and "take to workshop".

I got a tow off the track and parked up. A few said it could be a duff battery so I bought a new one and fitted it but there was still a problem. It will turn over but not start.
I plugged my laptop in and got the following codes.


P0343
Factory Fault Code 112 - Camshaft position sensor 1
Above limit


P0348
Camshaft position sensor 2

These themselves don't sound too bad as it could be bad wiring but I've also been hinted at that it could be IMS throwing the timing out and thus causing these codes.
When the car stalled I didn't feel any issues with the engine through the car, it was almost like I ran out of fuel then coasted to a halt.

Can anyone shed any more light on this issue?
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steveoz
Monza


Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 162



PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's a durametric or compatible, monitor real time data, add the crank hall sensor / speed sensor and see if it is actually registering RPM's when cranking, should crank up to 90 rpm not sit at zero.

If you've got zero your speed sensor's dead or malfunctioning. The crank sensor won't often register a fault code, if it dies it dies, but will throw other things out if the engine RPM is not monitored correctly at the time of the fault, they especially fail when hot.

It's a guess, but just throwing ideas around and giving you a bump Smile

Hope you get it sorted soon.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on duff Hall sensor.
 
  
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Richard H
Magny-Cours


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 2537
Location: Maidenhead, Berks.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you would get a crank position sensor error on your car if that was the problem. Steve - yours being an earlier car it probably wouldn't, unless the engine is running.

First thing I would do is drain the oil, and strain it to see if there is any debris, and examine the oil filter.
 
  
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30174
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, yes.

The elephant in the room.

One sure fire way of losing camshaft position data, and that's to lose the camshaft/drive.

Hope it's the Hall sensor.
 
  
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steveoz
Monza


Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 162



PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh ok.

Yes still worth checking real time date I would say, although to be safe yes check oil too, it certainly won't hurt to drop some and run a magnet close to it as it comes out.

If it just shut down and coasted nicely, and nothing audible I'd have thought a less serious issue.

Fingers crossed for you.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, the thing's you do for charity eh.
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16296
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont know but my fingers are crossed for you Chris.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of an update.

I managed to get the car back home this morning at 2am, bloody AA cover was only for Roadside, I didn't even know. Splat And they wanted £360 to upgrade and take me home. I rang around and rented a low loader for £95 for 24hr. I also damaged the front and rear PU's getting onto the truck to compound the issue, had to completely remove the front one to get it on..

Anyway the AA did plug into the car again and he checked the crank sensor (as this was his suspicion when I gave him symptoms) for voltage saying they would normally produce 2 to 3v mine was producing 0v, so its looking like the sensor at the crank. I'm surprised it doesn't throw a fault code though.
Next problem... is the sensor internal or external of the Gearbox?

I was quite worried that I was going to have a rebuild on my hands, but I'm not out of the woods yet so hopefully its just is the sensor.
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oz996
Österreich


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 926
Location: Sydney

1998 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want I will come over with my durametric and scan it for you.
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Sundayjumper
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 300
Location: Royal Berkshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
Next problem... is the sensor internal or external of the Gearbox?

I changed mine recently (although my fault turned out to be something else), it's fairly easily accessible from the nsr wheel arch once you've got the wheel off.
 
  
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Richard H
Magny-Cours


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 2537
Location: Maidenhead, Berks.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope it all works out to be an easy fix.

Steve did a DIY here: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=61941
 
  
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wizard993
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 11982


1966 Singer Gazelle

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also check the wiring on the sensors plug connection(if it does not fix the issue after a new sensor is fitted. Was it wet when it failed as water can sometimes find its way into the plug connection?

In this circuit, the crankshaft position sensor generates the 58X reference signals. Its a very sensitive circuit on the car which cannot tolerate interference or a failure of another component/connection.....up or downstream on this critical circuit.

The cranshaft positioing sensor measures the 58 crankshaft pulses per crankshaft revolution. The ECU needs to measure the 58th reference then tally them with the number of camshaft position signals its been getting fed.

It's when these signals dont tally up(or no signal rec'd) that the ECU/ECM kills the power to avoid possible engine failure.

After repairing the ECU will clear after approx 35 cycles or you can use a durametric/scan tool to clear. Alternatively, disconnect the battery for 10 minute to clear the ECU.

If you never heard anything untoward then you should be fine Thumb
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will dump the oil and split the filter tomorrow and hope there's nothing in there.
Although if it was a sudden failure it might not of deposited any particles near the magnetic sump plug as it won't fire up to distribute the bits. But like I say there didn't seem to be any noise or vibration and there's not any oil being lost onto the floor.

One other thing that was mentioned to me by the AA Mech was that its been heard for the sensor wiring to get crushed or trapped on some of the Porsche's.
I'll update as I get further with the prob.

Thanks for all the good info so far.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of an update. I dumped the oil today and split the oil filter and found a couple of flakes of Aluminium in the filter and a couple of small metal fragments on the Mag sump plug. Its not had an oil and filter change for nearly a year so this isn't worrying me too much.

The filter.



I managed to unplug the sensor wire from the plug and I tested the connection and got a reading of 8 ohms Then I put the ignition on and had a reading of 2 volts between pin 1 and 3 from the supply cable. Although this wire was tightly trapped between somewhere near the AOS I freed it before I tested it.
Does anyone know the values I should be getting?

The unusual thing was I couldn't remember which pins I checked on the sensor wire to get the 8 ohms reading and decided to check again, this time I didn't get a reading at all. I will check again with another power meter just to double check tomorrow.
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Tinker
Albert Park


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 1551
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a good indy.
 
  
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mrfastbaz
Imola


Joined: 17 Aug 2011
Posts: 860
Location: solihull


PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good luck keep us posted...
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have re checked the crank sensor and it is reading 8 ohms so it looks like its not faulty, although the AA said it wasn't producing voltage???

I took the sump off today to have a closer look and found a couple of bits that hadn't made it to the filter or sump plug but they don't look like they came from the IMS bearing. There are 3 piece's and they look almost like a valve guide but a lot shorter than I have seen a valve guide look like. They have not broken in length just down its side. Although I'm not sure what it would be. Like a small cylindrical part.
Personally I have a suspicion that it could be from the timing chain.
Pic below, any guesses Question

I must say I've been very thorough the last couple of days searching for metal that would ordinarily get missed even with a filter split.
Along with a magnetic plug and filter split I think its worth dropping the sump too as its only a half hour job to get off and back on.

Either way it looks like the engine is coming out. Sad Not the news I wanted.


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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7469
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very sorry to hear that, from the description you gave of it stopping it didn't sound terminal.

best of luck

MC
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8549
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
very sorry to hear that, from the description you gave of it stopping it didn't sound terminal.

best of luck

MC


It did just seem to cut out without any fuss. It's maybe still all intact but now has lost cam to crank timing due to the chain being slack. It doesn't make any untoward noises when it was turning over.
I won't really know until its out and in bits.

EDIT. I've just found some pictures of a 996 chain thats snapped. I feel this is what mine has done the more I think/look. PC

See you all next year...maybe. bye
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