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GT4
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:37 am    Post subject: Today I drove the future, and it's 991 (PDK) shaped Reply with quote

The 991 is probably every sportscar you'll ever need.

The noise was lovely, then I turned on the PSE Surprised

Really quite odd against the trend of every new modern car getting quieter and quieter, either because they can (more and better materials = progress or luxury) or because a Euro man with a clipboard says so.

I guess we have the 991's tuned induction and "Sound Symposer" resonance membrane behind the rear seats to thank.

You almost don't need PSE (not quite).

Taking the car out, it handles almost completely flat with minimal body roll, then you turn the PDCC on.

That will be the new wider stance, better weight distribution, retuned PASM and exemplary passive chassis doing their stuff before PDCC even gets a look in.

Even under vivid acceleration on such a cold and wet day, the perfectly placed tyres never even lit up the traction control light, let alone the rubber.

The traction and grip on this RWD Carrera is astonishing, the forthcoming AWD and wide-body's handling and road holding will be something to behold.

I didn't notice any lack of steering feel, but then I didn't notice any particular presence of steering feel either. Although this could be down to any steering inputs being translated flawlessly and accurately to an amended line, no scrabble, no under- or over-steer, no characteristic bob or dart from the nose. Perhaps with such verbatim responses you don't need to feel every lump and bump in the road, every change in surface grip?

(VW) DSG was good, PDK1 was better, PDK2 is something of a revelation.

It's not so much it replaces a manual, but with such instantaneous and smooth changes it's almost like you have just one gear.

The power transfer and acceleration are at once linear and phenomenal.

Whether accelerating from a standstill, or overtaking other traffic, the resultant slingshot from a floored throttle is awe inspiring, particularly from what is in effect almost the entry-level model (admittedly £90k+).

This version of PDK I found impossible to trick: it was always in the right gear.

That was unless it was in no gear.

Slightly bizarrely, at almost any let off from the throttle (except whilst cornering), the gearbox drops into "coast" mode and the gearbox selects neutral and the engine drops to an 800 rpm idle. It took me back to my first driving days, and popping the gear into neutral or simply depressing the clutch on hill descents to save fuel.

Another fuel saver (and a first for the 911), is the new stop-start system that kicks in immediately any time the car comes to a complete standstill. This is also a little disconcerting initially, mostly the sudden loss of the sound symphony, replaced by the noises from the outside world, or more likely the quiet of the outside world. 

You soon get used to it, though. 

Before the throttle has even moved a mm, the engine has instantly, and without drama, fired back up into life - and again in the right gear. If anything, it just seems like the soundtrack has been put on pause before resuming seamlessly from where it was at the press of a button, not the reality of a 200kg 3.8 litre 400 BHP flat-six being spontaneously started up. There certainly isn't any pause in the intending to go and the car moving off as expected.

The interior of the 991 is stitch perfect.

The quality of materials used, fitting and even tactile feel of the buttons are all beyond reproach.

The centre console may have been inspired by the Panamera or Cayenne, but with the seat set low, the feeling is of a cocooned sports cockpit, rather than luxo-barge.

The view out of the side window includes the new curiously anti-Tardis wing-mirrors: they look enormous housings, but have really quite small mirrors inside.

Even so, during the drive, the sheer performance of the 991 did get me asking myself if I REALLY needed all those savings.

However, the pivotal moment came on returning back to the OPC and parking the 991 up against its 997 predecessor.

Somehow the 993-esque headlights of the 997 seemed even more appropriate.

It was almost an exact replay of the day the short, stubby, sit-up and beg, upright 993 saw its future as it stood next to the sleek, stretched, aerodynamically designed (soap-on-a-rope), technologically advanced 996.

My heart skipped a beat.

For me the shorter, narrower, taller, slower, rawer, flawed 997 was suddenly the more loveable, cute even, more iconic, more seminal, more NINE ELEVEN.

The digital 991 with all its technological tours de force was somehow more anodyne, its responses a little too perfect, a little too engineered, a little too PS3.

The 991 is extraordinary, but at the same time, extra ordinary.

The 991 may be every sportscar you'll ever need, but for me, it won't be every sportscar I'll ever want.

For me, it generates no desire.

For me, a little of bit of the 911's soul has died.
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Whitehorse
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: Today I drove the future, and it is 991 (PDK) shaped Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
The 991 is probably every sportscar you'll ever need.

The noise was lovely, then I turned on the PSE Surprised

Really quite odd against the trend of every new modern car getting quieter and quieter, either because they can (more and better materials = progress or luxury) or because a Euro man with a clipboard says so.

I guess we have the 991's tuned induction and "Sound Symposer" resonance membrane behind the rear seats to thank.

You almost don't need PSE (not quite).

Taking the car out, it handles almost completely flat with minimal body roll, then you turn the PDCC on.

That will be the new wider stance, better weight distribution, retuned PASM and exemplary passive chassis doing their stuff before PDCC even gets a look in.

Even under vivid acceleration on such a cold and wet day, the perfectly placed tyres never even lit up the traction control light, let alone the rubber.

The traction and grip on this RWD Carrera is astonishing, the forthcoming AWD and wide-body's handling and road holding will be something to behold.

I didn't notice any lack of steering feel, but then I didn't notice any particular presence of steering feel either. Although this could be down to any steering inputs being translated flawlessly and accurately to an amended line, no scrabble, no under- or over-steer, no characteristic bob or dart from the nose. Perhaps with such verbatim responses you don't need to feel every lump and bump in the road, every change in surface grip?

(VW) DSG was good, PDK1 was better, PDK2 is something of a revelation.

It's not so much it replaces a manual, but with such instantaneous and smooth changes it's almost like you have just one gear.

The power transfer and acceleration are at once linear and phenomenal.

Whether accelerating from a standstill, or overtaking other traffic, the resultant slingshot from a floored throttle is awe inspiring, particularly from what is in effect almost the entry-level model (admittedly £90k+).

This version of PDK I found impossible to trick: it was always in the right gear.

That was unless it was in no gear.

Slightly bizarrely, at almost any let off from the throttle (except whilst cornering), the gearbox drops into "coast" mode and the gearbox selects neutral and the engine drops to an 800 rpm idle. It took me back to my first driving days, and popping the gear into neutral or simply depressing the clutch on hill descents to save fuel.

Another fuel saver (and a first for the 911), is the new stop-start system that kicks in immediately any time the car comes to a complete standstill. This is also a little disconcerting initially, mostly the sudden loss of the sound symphony, replaced by the noises from the outside world, or more likely the quiet of the outside world. 

You soon get used to it, though. 

Before the throttle has even moved a mm, the engine has instantly, and without drama, fired back up into life - and again in the right gear. If anything, it just seems like the soundtrack has been put on pause before resuming seamlessly from where it was at the press of a button, not the reality of a 200kg 3.8 litre 400 BHP flat-six being spontaneously started up. There certainly isn't any pause in the intending to go and the car moving off as expected.

The interior of the 991 is stitch perfect.

The quality of materials used, fitting and even tactile feel of the buttons are all beyond reproach.

The centre console may have been inspired by the Panamera or Cayenne, but with the seat set low, the feeling is of a cocooned sports cockpit, rather than luxo-barge.

The view out of the side window includes the new curiously anti-Tardis wing-mirrors: they look enormous housings, but have really quite small mirrors inside.

Even so, during the drive, the sheer performance of the 991 did get me asking myself if I REALLY needed all those savings.

However, the pivotal moment came on returning back to the OPC and parking the 991 up against its 997 predecessor.

Somehow the 993-esque headlights of the 997 seemed even more appropriate.

It was almost an exact replay of the day the short, stubby, sit-up and beg, upright 993 saw its future as it stood next to the sleek, stretched, aerodynamically designed (soap-on-a-rope), technologically advanced 996.

My heart skipped a beat.

For me the shorter, narrower, taller, slower, rawer, flawed 997 was suddenly the more loveable, cute even, more iconic, more seminal, more NINE ELEVEN.

The digital 991 with all its technological tours de force was somehow more anodyne, its responses a little too perfect, a little too engineered, a little too PS3.

The 991 is extraordinary, but at the same time, extra ordinary.

The 991 may be every sportscar you'll ever need, but for me, it won't be every sportscar I'll ever want.

For me, it generates no desire.

For me, a little of bit of the 911's soul has died.


I'm of the same opinion. At the launch, I found myself wondering what was nicer, if anything. I am reminded of my E61 BMW, lovely car, effortless comfort, but really without soul or passion. My 997 is not perfect but I enjoy getting from A to Z (usally via B, C, D etc Smile )
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j8fbr
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if I ever get a 991 on the drive, it will be my wifes company car !

Although I havnt driven one yet wack
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Ken White
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you switch off the stop/start facility? Have this on the wife's Mini, but does my head in, so have to switch it off every time I drive her car.

I know it saves fuel etc, but what about the cost having to replace the starter motor due to all the extra work it has to do?
 
  
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markvorny
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Joined: 06 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.

I dropped into my dealers yesterday to take a gander. Lovely car, nice element of progress, darned expensive, still an object of desire.

Interestingly, they had been to Silverstone to do their usual dealer launch and the jury was out on the fun factor, with the majority of the team preferring the 997 GTS that was there as part of the track fleet.
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken White wrote:
Can you switch off the stop/start facility? Have this on the wife's Mini, but does my head in, so have to switch it off every time I drive her car.

I know it saves fuel etc, but what about the cost having to replace the starter motor due to all the extra work it has to do?


Although the engine fires into life instantly (I mean on a single cylinder explosion, not even one revolution of the engine), I worry for when the car is a little out of tune, a cracked coil here, dirty MAF there and a knackered battery four years hence in the middle of winter.

A) will it actually start every time it stops? (think pulling out of junction or onto roundabout etc)
B) will the continual cold starting deplete the battery driving round (London) town?

In the same vein, my first thoughts on the engine "dying" (100 yds out of dealership), if you drove round town all day the engine and, more importantly this time of year, YOU would never warm up with the car stopping for every traffic light or simply rush hour crawl through the city.

So I guess you must be able to turn it off or you'd never be able to run th engine at a standstill.

Perhaps it is like the BMW system though, where you have to press the button (select option) everytime you get in?

Didn't have time to read the manual this time.
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chimp911
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2011 Porsche 997 Turbo S

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be very surprised if you can't disable it - the only reason they have it at all is to reduce the co2 emissions and thereby meet the euro regulations on their fleet...

I wonder how stop/start partners with launch control... Question
 
  
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markiii
Imola


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guy who has one on pistonheads has been told it can be turned off by the PCM
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Zingari
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDK a revelation Confused I'm sure there used to be a car made by DAF which had a variomatic gearbox. It also had a habit of slipping into drive whilst you left it to warm up Hand

On another matter I drove a 997 Turbo over the weekend - a friends car who has a outhouse (but called a mews) in Mayfair. I was impressed in the handling but also disappointed that it didn't 'feel' special. A great car yes and one you could drive every day in all traffic conditions - but actually I don't want a sports car for that.

Having recently been reunited with my old chum I have discovered he is a bit of a collector of cars which he keeps in Switzerland. I mentioned my 993 and perhaps he should get one as last of the air cooled. He wasn't sure if he had one or not. A quick review of the photos revealed a 993 TurboS that he recalled only has 600 miles on the clock Surprised
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice review GT4 Thumb
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice story Zingers.

I do wonder if when the Hydrogen-Hybrid 994 comes out in 14 years time we will look back whistfully at the first Gen 1 991.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken White wrote:


I know it saves fuel etc, but what about the cost having to replace the starter motor due to all the extra work it has to do?


My thoughts exactly !
 
  
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911BlackEd
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT4 wrote:
Ken White wrote:
Can you switch off the stop/start facility? Have this on the wife's Mini, but does my head in, so have to switch it off every time I drive her car.

I know it saves fuel etc, but what about the cost having to replace the starter motor due to all the extra work it has to do?


Although the engine fires into life instantly (I mean on a single cylinder explosion, not even one revolution of the engine), I worry for when the car is a little out of tune, a cracked coil here, dirty MAF there and a knackered battery four years hence in the middle of winter.

A) will it actually start every time it stops? (think pulling out of junction or onto roundabout etc)
B) will the continual cold starting deplete the battery driving round (London) town?

In the same vein, my first thoughts on the engine "dying" (100 yds out of dealership), if you drove round town all day the engine and, more importantly this time of year, YOU would never warm up with the car stopping for every traffic light or simply rush hour crawl through the city.

So I guess you must be able to turn it off or you'd never be able to run th engine at a standstill.

Perhaps it is like the BMW system though, where you have to press the button (select option) everytime you get in?

Didn't have time to read the manual this time.


The start stop only works in 'normal' mode. As soon as your turn on 'sports' or 'sports plus' the system is deactivated. The system also will not work until the car has reached a satisfactory opertaing temperature, and the battery is at an optimal charge.

You have to also remember that batterys do not like to remain at 100% charge, they need variation in order to remain at their optimum. The system caters for this, and will not cut in/out whilst the battery is below a certain level.

Wing mirrors is something I meant to mention in my review too, they are huge in size, but small in vision, I complained eraly on about the position of the mirror being on the door, rather than 'quarterlight' position, I think this is the one thing that I dislike on the 991.

I had a realisation as the 991 sat on my drive, that the 997 is far more like my old Mk2 Escort, a raw basic animal, but for me, using this new model as an everyday car, will make it far easier to live with. I know thats not what everyone else will want this car for, it should be a special weekend treat, but I totally understand why Porsche have done this.
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FDXmiguel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject: TD Reply with quote

Drove one yesterday and one thing is for sure, when you press Sport or Sportplus the engine never stops.
 
  
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911BlackEd wrote:
GT4 wrote:
Ken White wrote:
Can you switch off the stop/start facility? Have this on the wife's Mini, but does my head in, so have to switch it off every time I drive her car.

I know it saves fuel etc, but what about the cost having to replace the starter motor due to all the extra work it has to do?


Although the engine fires into life instantly (I mean on a single cylinder explosion, not even one revolution of the engine), I worry for when the car is a little out of tune, a cracked coil here, dirty MAF there and a knackered battery four years hence in the middle of winter.

A) will it actually start every time it stops? (think pulling out of junction or onto roundabout etc)
B) will the continual cold starting deplete the battery driving round (London) town?

In the same vein, my first thoughts on the engine "dying" (100 yds out of dealership), if you drove round town all day the engine and, more importantly this time of year, YOU would never warm up with the car stopping for every traffic light or simply rush hour crawl through the city.

So I guess you must be able to turn it off or you'd never be able to run th engine at a standstill.

Perhaps it is like the BMW system though, where you have to press the button (select option) everytime you get in?

Didn't have time to read the manual this time.


The start stop only works in 'normal' mode. As soon as your turn on 'sports' or 'sports plus' the system is deactivated. The system also will not work until the car has reached a satisfactory opertaing temperature, and the battery is at an optimal charge.

You have to also remember that batterys do not like to remain at 100% charge, they need variation in order to remain at their optimum. The system caters for this, and will not cut in/out whilst the battery is below a certain level.

Wing mirrors is something I meant to mention in my review too, they are huge in size, but small in vision, I complained eraly on about the position of the mirror being on the door, rather than 'quarterlight' position, I think this is the one thing that I dislike on the 991.

I had a realisation as the 991 sat on my drive, that the 997 is far more like my old Mk2 Escort, a raw basic animal, but for me, using this new model as an everyday car, will make it far easier to live with. I know thats not what everyone else will want this car for, it should be a special weekend treat, but I totally understand why Porsche have done this.


Pressumably there is an "off" option too though.

I mean, the solution to city dwellers can't be to run it in Sports or Sports Plus modes, as they present too many compromises if you want a comfortable drive.
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Tony 991S
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had PDCC on my spec origionally but then deleted it, because I'll never drive around a corner fast enough for it to be of any use.

I'll only be driving my 991 at a steady pace. Embarassed and it will never be within 100 miles of a race track!
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will still blow a 997 into the weeds handlingwise.
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chimp911
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be very disappointed if it didn't! I'm looking forward to see what the GT and turbo models are like in a couple of years... Grin
 
  
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GT4
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chimp911 wrote:
I'd be very disappointed if it didn't! I'm looking forward to see what the GT and turbo models are like in a couple of years... Grin


Just meant you in no way need the PDCC.

Many of the points I raised in the review were meant as juxtapositions of options (and implicitly how they rate against the 997):

Standard vs PSE
Standard vs PDCC
C2 vs C4 (at least C2 991 vs C4 997)
PDK vs manual (at least PDK 991 vs manual 997)
etc

Pressumably every option improves the thing it is meant to improve, so not doubting the extra PSE or extra PDCC, just debating if it is gilding a lilly and at what price?)
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chimp911
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've no doubt there's some lily gilding going on there and as you say a lot will be down to individual opinion and the personal value you put on the features and options available.

My point was more general in that while the 991's aesthetics and modifications may not be to everyone's taste, the new model as a basic package should represent a significant step forward on the 997 it replaces. The PDCC bells and PSE whistles alone should not be what sets the car apart from it's predecessor...
 
  
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