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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 947
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject: Expected costs when buying a used Porsche Reply with quote

I started writing a reply to Uke's post of "It just won't go away.." and as I often do started rambling on a bit off post and thought it better to start a new thread. His post relates to wanting to buy a 996 etc.

In our experience, you can buy both great cars and poor cars from both the trade (including specialists) and privately. It seems to us that wherever the car is being sold, one of the reasons in many, if not most cases for it becoming available in the first place is that its reached the stage of life where an expensive period is due/looming. We've observed two very common scenarios - the first relates to the typical Porsche running costs pattern - We've found that more often than not a Porsche is cheap to run for a number of years/miles when just servicing is needed but this doesn't go on forever and eventually an expensive period comes where typical things like a major service, tyres, brakes, coil packs, track control arms, drop links, clutches, etc. are all needed around the same time resulting in a large bill of say £2000-£3000. Once this has passed annual costs usually get low again for a while and then eventually the next expensive phase comes along when the same sorts of things may need addressing again. We liken it to an oscillating graph with peaks and troughs. The owner at the time knows that these costs are approaching (because he probably went through it once before), he's had the car for a number of years and fancies a change and then decides to sell. (Overall if the total costs were averaged out and taken over say a 5 year period we still find that most of the cars have very reasonable annual running costs.)

The second common scenario is that a major problem is looming such as the first stages of a cracked cylinder and so the owner decides to sell and "move" the problem onto someone else.

Both cars in the above scenarios can still be very nice "good" straight cars with FSH etc. or they may be not so nice but one of the fundamental factors in the owners reaching their decision to sell is looming cost.

The owners at the time may then p/ex the car, sometimes to a Porsche main agent or one of another Marque such as Audi, BMW, Merecedes etc. who then sells it to their usual underwriter, who in turn sells it to a retail car dealer who then sells it to the new owner. They may sell it directly to a retail dealer, or sell it privately but whichever route it ends being offered for sale to the public, it still has the looming expense.

If the retailer properly prepares the car then these areas should be identified and addressed prior to the new owner taking delivery but there aren't many garages or private individuals who do this and so it is paramount (in our opinion) that the new owner expects to spend as soon as he's bought it and get it back to the mechanical condition it should be in (unless he's bought from someone he can trust is going to prepare it properly). We suggest people don't place too much reliance on previous service history (which is essentially a record that a list of jobs should have been completed) and get a proper thorough major service and check over carried out themselves (we use our Gold Major service which is an expanded version of the Porsche major schedule). It's unlikely that every fault found will "need" addressing immediately but the new owner will then be in a position to create a schedule of properly informed planned maintenance.

As a rule of thumb we suggest that prospective Porsche purchasers factor £2000-£3000 into their total budget for this initial service/check over and addressing the more pressing matters so someone with a total buying pot of £20000 should only spend £17000-£18000 on the car.

Just to re-iterate, if the garage/private individual you're buying from is going to prepare the car properly then the same caution may not be needed and of course, not every car for sale has big expense looming - there will be ones on the market where the initial reason was just a change of the owners circumstances etc. but only the owner at the time genuinely knows this. If you can't fully trust the intergrity and motives of the seller then we feel that you should always assume something needs doing and if it doesn't - hey ho you've got your properly serviced & checked over Porsche for less than you thought !

Grant
www.hartech.org
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eddiek-62
Trainee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Glasgow


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that post is a bit of a scare-fest tbh. My opinion is that owners of 911's appear to be fastidious about their maintenance and generally appear to take it on the chin when something needs doing. Read any forum about buying porsches and every piece of advice ends in 'get it inspected'. We all know this to be the case and surely would therefore be unlikely to sell a car that is needing a shedload of work done in the hope that someone is clueless?

I happen to be selling my car at the moment because I need a new smaller car for my son to learn to drive in (and his sister a year later). In the last few months, I've had the suspension done, 6 spark plug tubes, spark plugs, 6 coil packs, OPC service, 2 aircon condensers and a regas. Yes at some point in the future other work will need doing but a private sele would normally be 2K cheaper than a dealer anyway (so there's your 2K for 'unforseen items' right there!!)
 
  
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Richard H
Magny-Cours


Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 2537
Location: Maidenhead, Berks.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Eddie, we forum anoraks are in the vast minority of 'modern' Porsche owners. These are volume produced cars, and most owners are not marque enthusiasts like us. I think Grant is right in what he is saying - basically, factor in some expense for repairs when working out your budget. We are talking about 5-10 year old second hand cars, after all.
 
  
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eddiek-62
Trainee


Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Glasgow


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard, I totally agree - you have to factor in for repairs - it's stupid not to. I was picking up on the implication that people selling their pride and joy (in my case) are only doing so because a large bill is looming.
 
  
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adeymars
Montreal


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 502
Location: Yorkshire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's not "one way" to buy a Porsche but to reiterate my addition to UKE's post buying from an enthusiast still rings true to me.
I can agree with the point that Porsche owners take it on the chin and pay the bill but sometimes it has to be put off for a while at other times the bill and circumstances force the sale "as is"

As for "crystal balling" a catastrophic engine failure? Not so sure here.
I think the most fundamental action any buyer can take is to pay for a PPI then the buyer and seller will have access to an expert opinion of the cars CURRENT condition. After that fair negotiations can take place or the buyer can walk away.
HIPS packs for Porsche’s? Why not!For me,the place to buy is 911UK forum members with a relatively good level of contribution and several years ownership.
Could I sell my Porker knowing the new owner will face several thousand of pounds of work in one hit?

I'm afraid not I would have to tell him or Part ex to a dealer and then it's in the mix for discerning buyers.
I know that not all owners have scruples and most dealers are in that category that is how the maximize profit teetering on the edge of what the can and cannot get away with in Law.
Some specialists do have scruples and use their expertise to source the right cars in the first place and maximise their profits by building their reputation.
I, for one do not know who these are amongst the Porsche world of sales.
Show me dealer that will warrant his cars for a 12 month period at his cost and I will hand my money over.
Let us recall some of us are contemplating spending in excess of £35000 on a second hand car and are then asked to spend up to 2k more on an incomprehensive warranty.
Doesn't stack up for me.
I'm not sure Grant deals with, on the whole,with the typical Porsche enthusiasts owner but he can sell to anyone and perhaps some if not most are not enthusiasts, some will be in the future and some will never be.

The most upsetting part of Porsche ownership is the OPC network whilch fails to support the cars and the owners the same people who one day may turn up at the showroom for a new one.
I am no car expert but know more than the majority of owners and I know when I have been lied,cheated and robbed by an unprofessional organisatiion.
Buying a used 911?
The most difficult single purchase any man or woman can make in their life?
Probably!
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 947
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie

My comments aren’t intended to be a scare-fest.

We see on average at least one car a week where the customer is a new owner who's going through this exact process and those that are already expecting a degree of "inherited faults" seem to leave here in a much better frame of mind than those that aren't expecting faults and think that their new pride and joy is perfect and they haven't made provision in their overall budget. The cars could be identical with the only difference being the new owner’s expectations and approach. On the flip side, we have many cars in for service which have faults which we report and which some customers don't address claiming they’re selling the car soon anyway. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that the only reason all cars come for sale is because money needs spending but buyers should recognise that it is a large contributory factor in the decision making process for many owners leading up to them deciding to sell.

We frequently inspect cars for people before they buy but this is limited and like most other ppi’s offered elsewhere doesn’t involve the removal of parts necessary for a more exhaustive check such as cylinder compressions, brake pipes, brake disc thickness, etc. and we still always advise a significant fund be earmarked for a proper service/inspection and remedial work. A ppi’s still worthwhile because it can reveal a reason not to buy full stop but it isn’t the be all and end all.

I’m afraid that not all Porsche owners “take it on the chin” as well as you do and there are many who for one reason or another choose/may not be able to afford to maintain them to the same standard as some but even the nicest car will be due a set of coils, a/c condensers, brake discs, radiators, clutch, and so on at some point and it is very unusual for an owner to get this work done and then sell it, more common is the case that he sells it just before this stuff needs doing .

It would be nice if everyone had a non-financial reason for sale like yourself and always had necessary work carried out. The standard of cars on the road would be higher and people wouldn’t need to be so sceptical about buying cars but unfortunately that’s not reality. The purpose of my post was to encourage people not to spend their full budget on the car and keep some funds up their sleeve (unless the car is being properly prepared). This applies to both private and trade sales because at the end of the day all the cars start off as private ones and some may find their way into the trade.

Grant
www.hartech.org
 
  
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Pazuzu
Monza


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 208
Location: Near Ashford, Kent


PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as someone who has just this very week bought their first 911 I thought I'd add a some comments.

I looked at three 911's and missed looking at three more because for some reason the used car market has taken off a little in the last few weeks and they had sold before I could get there.

I'd been trying to sell my Range Rover for ages at pretty much trade price (only 52k miles) with the usual parade of jokers and chancers. I went on holiday for a couple of weeks and the car was removed from sale for that time. When I came back I re-advertised it in exactly the same way and suddenly I'm getting 3 calls a day from actual potential buyers. It sold in under a week to the third guy who looked for full asking price.

I then start looking for 996's as they are a conspicuous bargain at the moment in my opinion and I've always liked them.

I was not too fussy in that I was open to Coupe or Convertible, 2 or 4 wheel drive, the only fixed points were black interior and manual gearbox.

Basically, to cut a long story short, anything good was sold within days and only the cars with question marks against history or condition were hanging about.

I didn't get a PPI on the car I eventually bought simply because the guy's phone was ringing off the hook (I was first there) and if I didn't buy it there and then someone else would have and asking him to wait while I sorted out a PPI would probably have been a deal breaker not because he wouldn't have been comfortable with it but simply because someone would have just paid up with no extra hassle.

In my defence the car is ex-Paragon with a fully stamped history and bills to show it's been loved and the guy seemed a genuine enthusiast with a decent reason to sell.

If it turns out it does need some work the bargain price of 996's at the moment will offset it and if the worst happened I'd just have to suck it up.

I went into the purchase with my eyes open and know the car is going to cost a decent amount to keep in good condition which I am prepared for (resigned to?) but if you want one at some point you've just got to go with your gut feel I think.

Sorry for the long post!

Cheers,

Phil
 
  
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whoareya
Montreal


Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 503



PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eddiek-62 wrote:
I think that post is a bit of a scare-fest tbh. My opinion is that owners of 911's appear to be fastidious about their maintenance and generally appear to take it on the chin when something needs doing. Read any forum about buying porsches and every piece of advice ends in 'get it inspected'. We all know this to be the case and surely would therefore be unlikely to sell a car that is needing a shedload of work done in the hope that someone is clueless?

I happen to be selling my car at the moment because I need a new smaller car for my son to learn to drive in (and his sister a year later). In the last few months, I've had the suspension done, 6 spark plug tubes, spark plugs, 6 coil packs, OPC service, 2 aircon condensers and a regas. Yes at some point in the future other work will need doing but a private sele would normally be 2K cheaper than a dealer anyway (so there's your 2K for 'unforseen items' right there!!)


Eddie

I can assure you that there a far fewer sellers out there of your ilk than there are those (private sellers and retailers) that will ignore, hide and bodge anything to maximise sell-on margins.

That is not opinion, it's fact.
 
  
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Uke
Newbie


Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 15



PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly buying a used Porsche is a minefield as it is with most used cars, except that the unexpected bills can be crippling to the unwary. Baz thanks for your responses, clearly I will have to include a nice contingency pot just in case the worst occurs.

One wonders if it is a better idea to go with something that has already had a major issue that has been repaired thoroughly by experts such as this... http://www.911uk.com/adverts.php
 
  
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wagonface
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 1427
Location: Esher

1991 Porsche 964 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grant is bang on if you ask me, especially with the costing of an initial big inspection/service.

Dont forget:
1) most of us on here are enthusiasts who spend c.50% (guestimate) more p.a. than the average Porsche owner does on their car
2) we are a very small minority of Porsche owners
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mike brown
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 466



PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baz you are spot on with your information regarding the purchase of Porsches, thanks for the time to input it, if I ever need my engine done you will get the job Thanks Mike
 
  
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 15625
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the new driving season approaching there seem to be a number of potential buyers lurking around.

I bought my car in October 2009 after 9 months of research and I found this thread particularly useful before actually taking the plunge.

Given that 996s are becoming very affordable to buy my personal p.s to anyone is to make sure that you buy within your budget and set aside some funds for getting the car into tip-top shape.

The additional £1000 I paid for a full service, new plugs and brake fluid change made my car far more enjoyable to drive and the further £700 I paid for new tyres then added to that.

Fingers-crossed I'll get to enjoy this years motoring at a reasonable cost and then probably get new discs and pads all round before 2012.
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GT4
Nordschleife
Nordschleife


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 30178
Location: Hertfordshire and Hampshire


PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too think Grant is correct.

I have an everyday car that gets used and abused as if it were white-goods.

Now it gets serviced on the dot by the dealer and so far any work is authorised immediately without reference to cost. It wants for nothing.

Afterall, it is doing large mileages at speed and I value both my safety and the fact it will start immediately when I do use it.

However, as much as it has never put a foot wrong, ever since it was three years old, I have been casting round for something new, just for a change.

In fact my biggest worry is that whatever I replace it with will be less perfect in driving enjoyment, equipment or reliability.

However, I may have had my catalyst or kick up the bum to move on.

I was having new tyres fitted at the dealer and out of interest asked what the four month imminent service would cost.

It's a biggie including cam belt.

So that seed of an idea of buying something new has now been prioritised to front and centre as now I effectively have an additional £1k subsidy in my mind to put towards the new one if I get shot ASAP.

The problem comes if either the private buyer or dealer doesn't know or doesn't care that the car needs a cam belt and a few months or few years down the line (depending on how long it holds on for) could conceivably lead to an expensive and stressful catastrophic engine failure.

Now I don't know if that makes me evil, but it seems entirely logical to me.

Now replace MY everyday car with the vast majority of great unwashed Porcshe owners with an advised imminent (probably bigger) bill, and I find the situation no different.

As always, caveat emptor.

PS - almost all of those plaintive "company car forces sale" ads are bollocks.
 
  
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churny
Nürburgring


Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 499
Location: Newcastle

2003 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just purchased a 996 anniversary and prior to buying it i contacted Hartech and they advised me the same as Grants post.
I then bought a car from a private seller, I got a good feel about both the seller and the car but still got a peter morgan ppi. As a result i negotiated a 1k reduction on the agreed price.
The advice i recieved from Hartech made me decide to buy privately as the cars are cheaper and it gives you a 2-3k budget to get any required work done. My car was dropped of at Hartech today for a gold service as i want to use their maintenence scheme. I am expecting to need further work done, and probably a hefty bill ( Not too big please Grant Thumb )
But i am happy that once done the car will be right, and i can enjoy it with relative piece of mind.
Had i bought from a dealer with a warranty i would be relying on them to do any work properly and whilst i am sure many are very good, there must be plenty that will turn a blind eye to certain problems hoping that they wont need doing until the end of the warranty period.
 
  
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Rob_wilson1973
Newbie


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Well I bought a 996 a few years ago and made every mistake Reply with quote

Don't know if this helps but I learn the hard way!


1) If the guy selling you makes a point of putting the air con on and saying well its cold so that works, it probably doesn't. Especially if its December..of course the air is cold. Kicked myself for that one...

2) Look at the log book, all services done on time and last one done a couple of months ago but mileage still the same? Someones been told theres a cracked cylinder and hasn't driven it since.. So that was a nice engine rebuild I had done after 3 months.

Always get it checked out. In the past 3 years I've had to have done:

1) Full engine rebuild
2) Radiators changed (both of them twice)
3) MAF sensor
4) Engine chamber thingy stuck (you can tell im technical...)
5) Lamda Sensors. They have 4 you say? what a delightful surprise.
6) Rear screen replaced
7) 4 new tyres and 4 new discs right after purchase

quite a few bits more as well

To be honest its my own fault and this guy saw me coming. I had a boxster s before that was unburstable and thought Porsches never go wrong. They do.
 
  
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Kimbo
Paul Ricard


Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 3480
Location: East Sussex


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some very unscrupulous people out there, who will think nothing of stitching someone up.

May they sleep well.

Sorry to hear of your story.

Only just read Grant's post - I thought it was good.
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 3828



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately buying a used Porsche is like buying any used car - a gamble - but a gamble where the odds are greater aganst the buyer.

I saw some pretty poor cars when I was looking this time last year.
Even a PPI is not infallible - but it does take much of the risks out of buying.

And I too think that indy 'specialists' are divided into those who are good nd those who one has to take what they say with a pinch of salt.

The bottom line as a buyer is that it is down to us to take all possible steps to satisfy ourselves the car is as it is claimed.
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