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Is the 997 engine made from cheese?

toffeeman

Well-known member
Joined
5 Mar 2009
Messages
190
I've been following the 997 section on here for a while as I'll be spending my £30-35k on a C2S in August when I get back from deployment. I'm really concerned about the 997 engine issues I keep reading about, namely bigfish and brillo who I really feel for right now. I can't imagine how it must feel to spend that amount of hard earned money only to see it go up in smoke.
I'm really trying to convince myself here that the 997 engine is essentially solid and these issues are a small representation of the ownership out there. I'm pretty sure I'll own one of these cars later on this year as its my dream car and the prices are in my league right now. There is nothing else out there I want to own as I'm currently selling my second Nissan 350Z.
I'm no stranger to cars with dodgy reputations as I seem to remember my old Clio Williams and V5 Impreza STI Type-R both came with these issues but I had no problems with either.

I guess what I'm asking for is that all C2S owners tell me how awesome their car is to raise the doom and gloom surrounding these engines!!

Cheers,

Craig.
 
Hi Toffeeman and welcome to 911uk. It is very unfortunate what bigfish and brillo are experiencing currently and yes we all do feel for their situations. However as you have mentioned, they are in the minority and a Porsche warranty would cover these issues anyway. As Stuart (a regular poster on these forums) clearly states. whenever there is a problem with any car, many people are quick to report it in internet chat rooms and the worry surrounding these cars increases somewhat exponentially.

When we are spending in the region of £40k, we have every right to expect nothing but the best; having said that, I am informed that whatever the %age of affected 997 engines are out there, it is the same %age of engines that fail under alternate makers.

I do hope that both brillo and bigfish get their cars sorted and also get as much publicity too if only to wake up Porsche GB just a little. I also hope that you will get a good car backed with a suitable warranty enabling you to sleep easier at nights. Happy hunting.

~ Maxie
 
Hi All,

Having been a 911 owner for over a year now and reading with interest issues like this one,, I do take issue with the fact that we as 911 owners should expect to pay out for warranty Insurance, I have been driving for over 25yrs and never expected that i should have to buy an extra Insurance to cover a car that should be made fit for purpose..ie driving,,

Having just purchased my 997 at cost of over £35K, we should not expect to pay for extra Insurance to "sleep easier"

My point is are we letting Porsche off easy and lining their pockets with us, "Porsche Owners" automaticlally being expected to pay for warranty Insurance? maybe we should be more demanding from Porsche GB, especially with cars that are relative new and low milage,.

Cambsguy
2006 C2
 
cambsguy said:
Hi All,

Having been a 911 owner for over a year now and reading with interest issues like this one,, I do take issue with the fact that we as 911 owners should expect to pay out for warranty Insurance, I have been driving for over 25yrs and never expected that i should have to buy an extra Insurance to cover a car that should be made fit for purpose..ie driving,,

Having just purchased my 997 at cost of over £35K, we should not expect to pay for extra Insurance to "sleep easier"

My point is are we letting Porsche off easy and lining their pockets with us, "Porsche Owners" automaticlally being expected to pay for warranty Insurance? maybe we should be more demanding from Porsche GB, especially with cars that are relative new and low milage,.

Cambsguy
2006 C2

It's all relative in my opinion. What I mean is, if you pay 35k for a 997, that was originally 75k + new, then you would expect there to be a greater risk of something going wrong than there would be with a new one. That's part of the reason you can buy it for 35k in the first place. It's the same for any make of car. Porsche are expensive to begin with because they are very good quality, highly designed and developed, have a strong desirable brand and are all-round great cars. They are not made from Kryptonite and are not immune to mechanical/electrical failures, same as any other make.

When something does go wrong with a 911, there's a chance it will be expensive relative to lesser cars, so it's wise to have some sort of warranty cover IMHO. It might be annoying to have to pay for that but the cost of it is going to turn up somewhere (included in the price of new and approved used) and as an add-on for other cars. Still, I do remember moaning at the sales manager about a measly 2 year warranty on a new one. It's an Insurance market just like any other and someone is making a margin somewhere

For the record, I had a 55 plate C2S for a year which was faultless and I have owned a '58 C4S for 6 months which has also been faultless, So I don't personally think that 997 engines are made from cheese!
 
The issue here is probably the manner in which the engine was used in the hands of the previous owners. When a manufacturer warranties a car they take the risk that the owner could seriously abuse an engine and it not being traceable, but they cover it anyway:

For example, it could be thrashed from cold (unproveable)
It could have been chipped / remapped and then returned to standard
It could have had the wrong fuel in it for a while
It could have been starved of oil for a while

etc, etc...

It is almost impossible to detect any of the above without stripping the engine - which at £5000 a time, is hardly likely to be done as part of a PPI.

Porsche engines are tuned to give outstanding performance from minimum fuel useage / weight and so it is more critical that they are treated sensitively than your average shopping car. Consequently, if they are abused they are more likely to fail - look what used to happen to the 'grenade' qualifying engines in F1 years ago.

As an ex-engineer I have a high degree of mechanical sympathy - I never rev past 4000 rpm, or use full throttle, until the engine is fully up to temperature, I heel and toe downchanges, etc. and my 108,000 mile 3.4 996 still doesn't use a drop of oil between services and runs beautifully...

Co-incidence? Luck? I think not...
 
Wattie said:
The issue here is probably the manner in which the engine was used in the hands of the previous owners. When a manufacturer warranties a car they take the risk that the owner could seriously abuse an engine and it not being traceable, but they cover it anyway:

For example, it could be thrashed from cold (unproveable)
It could have been chipped / remapped and then returned to standard
It could have had the wrong fuel in it for a while
It could have been starved of oil for a while

etc, etc...

It is almost impossible to detect any of the above without stripping the engine - which at £5000 a time, is hardly likely to be done as part of a PPI.

Porsche engines are tuned to give outstanding performance from minimum fuel useage / weight and so it is more critical that they are treated sensitively than your average shopping car. Consequently, if they are abused they are more likely to fail - look what used to happen to the 'grenade' qualifying engines in F1 years ago.

As an ex-engineer I have a high degree of mechanical sympathy - I never rev past 4000 rpm, or use full throttle, until the engine is fully up to temperature, I heel and toe downchanges, etc. and my 108,000 mile 3.4 996 still doesn't use a drop of oil between services and runs beautifully...

Co-incidence? Luck? I think not...

Wattie

Fully support your comments, and am heartened to hear that you running a high milage 996..
My comments are about the fact that we are almost expected to take out warranty Insurance, take my car its under 3 yrs old with 16,000 miles, should i really need to pay for Insurance!!! or more importantly feel I should to sleep easy.
Most makes in UK have 3 yrs manufactures warranty no quibble cover...irrespective of previous owners.. and as you no doubt aware some cheaper cars are giving away 7ys 100,000 miles cover.. and i beleive USA Porsce give 4 yrs.. are we being fooled, that as Porsche owners we should expect to pay extra premiums..!!!

Thats my thoughts for whats its worth,,

Matter of if interest Wattie, have you/do you pay extra for warranty.. and please explain what is heal and toe gear change.....
cambsguy
 
Cambsguy raises a good point. I never worried about a warranty until I started reading horror stories on these forums. There most be members on here that drive BMW, Mercedes etc and it would be interesting to hear if those they have warranties on those cars (I never did). I guess it's a bit like when you buy a TV and they offer you the extended warranty - don't take it and you take your chances and it depends on if you can afford the hit if it arises - seem to have hijacked this thread :wack:
 
Hello,

My tuppence! As a 997 owner, I don't feel the need to post up every now and then just to say 'everything is fine with my car!' so reading forums you will typically pick up on other peoples problems and how they are resolved.

Anyone who spends a large amount of cash and then have problems - my heart goes out to them as it's a big decision to buy into this great brand - quite often a lifelong dream and it doesn't always go according to plan.

In my opinion, we are buying into a supercar here - perhaps yes the every day usable supercar but nontheless it isn't a ford mondeo. I think a Porsche warranty is a must and you buy into Porsche knowing that maintenance costs can be heavy therefore you can insure yourself and have peace of mind for a fixed premium per year. Also, buy from a well established and reputable dealership and there is a large amount of recourse back to them should things go wrong in a short space of time.

Also, I have said before - don't get drawn into buying the cheapest car on the market - these cars aren't meant to be cheap. I believe it is always worth spend a couple of grand extra to get a lower mileage, better maintained car from a good dealer.

So, a 997 bought from an OPC or good Indie with a 12 month warranty should generally give you nothing less than many smiles per mile.
 
engines made of cheese

As a 911 c4s owner who absolutely loves his car and all that it stands for, and would have no other sports car, I have to say that as an ex motor engineer I honestly believe that Porsche engines are not as well engineered as Peugeot for instance. I think the quality of sourced engine components is poor, some parts are made in places such as slovenia, its about costs for Porsche and profits, this is even more evident on the later models. You simply should not have to purchase a warranty in case the engine blows, and they do blow just look at the various forums. I think also that a well used engine is probably likely to last longer. Because if it is hammered any early weaknesses will show up, whereas a cared for example could conceal manufacturing flaws, until a later date. I run heavy goods vehicles that cover up to 1million k per vehicle lifetime, used everyday and I never get blown engines, thats in 21 years of constant daily use. Porsche engines have a problem of that there can be no doubt.regards Mike
 
Re: engines made of cheese

mike brown said:
As a 911 c4s owner who absolutely loves his car and all that it stands for, and would have no other sports car, I have to say that as an ex motor engineer I honestly believe that Porsche engines are not as well engineered as Peugeot for instance. I think the quality of sourced engine components is poor, some parts are made in places such as slovenia, its about costs for Porsche and profits, this is even more evident on the later models. You simply should not have to purchase a warranty in case the engine blows, and they do blow just look at the various forums. I think also that a well used engine is probably likely to last longer. Because if it is hammered any early weaknesses will show up, whereas a cared for example could conceal manufacturing flaws, until a later date. I run heavy goods vehicles that cover up to 1million k per vehicle lifetime, used everyday and I never get blown engines, thats in 21 years of constant daily use. Porsche engines have a problem of that there can be no doubt.regards Mike

Well said .....
 
Jamie said:
...

.......In my opinion, we are buying into a supercar here - perhaps yes the every day usable supercar but nontheless it isn't a ford mondeo. I think a Porsche warranty is a must and you buy into Porsche knowing that maintenance costs can be heavy therefore you can insure yourself and have peace of mind for a fixed premium per year. Also, buy from a well established and reputable dealership and there is a large amount of recourse back to them should things go wrong in a short space of time.

Also, I have said before - don't get drawn into buying the cheapest car on the market - these cars aren't meant to be cheap. I believe it is always worth spend a couple of grand extra to get a lower mileage, better maintained car from a good dealer.

So, a 997 bought from an OPC or good Indie with a 12 month warranty should generally give you nothing less than many smiles per mile.

+1

Maybe Peugeot engines are better engineered than Porsche ones, who knows but I don't think that's the point really. Sure, if you read the forums where people post about their problems (not about how well their cars are running) you might get the impression there is something "wrong" but I don't think it gives you a balanced view. The vast majority of 911s will go 0-60 in 5 seconds day in day out if taken care of and will deliver great fuel consumption and reliability too. That cannot come from something being wrong with them or "poor engineering" surely? So what if Porsche sources low cost parts. So does Peugeot and so does F1 for that matter when they are fit for purpose.

If you buy a Porsche and then are constantly worried about the warranty costs or not able to sleep for fear of something going wrong, then that's a real shame as it will really detract from the experience of owning one IMO.
 
goodethernet said:
Jamie said:
...

.......In my opinion, we are buying into a supercar here - perhaps yes the every day usable supercar but nontheless it isn't a ford mondeo. I think a Porsche warranty is a must and you buy into Porsche knowing that maintenance costs can be heavy therefore you can insure yourself and have peace of mind for a fixed premium per year. Also, buy from a well established and reputable dealership and there is a large amount of recourse back to them should things go wrong in a short space of time.

Also, I have said before - don't get drawn into buying the cheapest car on the market - these cars aren't meant to be cheap. I believe it is always worth spend a couple of grand extra to get a lower mileage, better maintained car from a good dealer.

So, a 997 bought from an OPC or good Indie with a 12 month warranty should generally give you nothing less than many smiles per mile.

+1

Maybe Peugeot engines are better engineered than Porsche ones, who knows but I don't think that's the point really. Sure, if you read the forums where people post about their problems (not about how well their cars are running) you might get the impression there is something "wrong" but I don't think it gives you a balanced view. The vast majority of 911s will go 0-60 in 5 seconds day in day out if taken care of and will deliver great fuel consumption and reliability too. That cannot come from something being wrong with them or "poor engineering" surely? So what if Porsche sources low cost parts. So does Peugeot and so does F1 for that matter when they are fit for purpose.

If you buy a Porsche and then are constantly worried about the warranty costs or not able to sleep for fear of something going wrong, then that's a real shame as it will really detract from the experience of owning one IMO.

......Yawn :eek:
 
Re: engines made of cheese

mike brown said:
As a 911 c4s owner who absolutely loves his car and all that it stands for, and would have no other sports car, I have to say that as an ex motor engineer I honestly believe that Porsche engines are not as well engineered as Peugeot for instance. I think the quality of sourced engine components is poor, some parts are made in places such as slovenia, its about costs for Porsche and profits, this is even more evident on the later models. You simply should not have to purchase a warranty in case the engine blows, and they do blow just look at the various forums. I think also that a well used engine is probably likely to last longer. Because if it is hammered any early weaknesses will show up, whereas a cared for example could conceal manufacturing flaws, until a later date. I run heavy goods vehicles that cover up to 1million k per vehicle lifetime, used everyday and I never get blown engines, thats in 21 years of constant daily use. Porsche engines have a problem of that there can be no doubt.regards Mike

HGV's are built to cover a million kms. Porsche is a supercar. Nothing is ever perfect. I would be gutted and perhaps have a different view if my engine went pop tomorrow (but thats why I'm renewing my warranty next week). Do Lambo's have engine problems at 30,000 miles? Ferrari? Audi R8? Of course they do, probably more. That should be the comparison.
 
Mine is fine and not remotely cheesy.

Its about risk, surely. And risk is a function of the impact (high if we're talking about a new engine) and the chance of occurence (who really knows? Porsche and they're not telling).

As the chance of occurence element is based on opinion and hearsay and because a small probability increase leads to a big increase in risk, then threads such as this talk up the perceived risk.

If you're sensitive to risk, buy a warranty as an exercise in risk management.

If you're very sensitive to risk reduce the impact by buying a cheaper car. I know people who are very happy with their S2000 and don't feel the need to criticise the engines of other manufacturers.
 
Re: engines made of cheese

Jamie said:
mike brown said:
Do Lambo's have engine problems at 30,000 miles? Ferrari? Audi R8? Of course they do, probably more. That should be the comparison.

Well yes and no. Beacause The Ferraris & Lambos are not reliable it doesnt mean a Porsche should not be. I have a 2 year old car with only 21k into the clock (and been very careful with it when is cold etc) and I do not see a reason why I should pay 1.3K a year or so in case the engine goes.
How about the reliability of the Imprezas and Evos? They do give you 300bhp out of a 2.0l engine and they are not expensive either but do they have those issues ?I believe not!!!
 

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