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poon
Sepang


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 2834
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of a dillemma, albeit it a nice one to have.

When I shelled out the price of my first property on my 3 I said to myself, no mods, keep it for 4 years at least and don't waste any money, well one cage, one harness, one set of spare wheels with Toyo,s two Alcons and RS29, and a trackday GEO set up later I am getting that all too familiar feeling about the slippery slope.

So what am I thinking over:

1) Manthey mods, suspension K410 engine conversion, RS front bumper and air re-direction job, shortshift and LWFW. Cost must be at least 12k for that little lot.
2) Buy a GT3RS in Blue. Price will be upwards of 65k for the right one so, approx 10k on top of mine when I sell mine.
3) Stick to my original plan and get a 997 GT3 in two years, hopefully price will be 60k, mine will be worth 45k?? So 15k to trade up?

Questions (Hopefully Adrien, Glen and Sunny can chip in here)

1) Will the Manthey mods above give me a car superior in day to day and track driving than an RS?
2) If I get an RS will I still hanker after the K410?
3) Do you think that any of the manthey mods add value or will I get anything back come re-sale, suppose I could always return it to standard and flog the conversion parts (private or via JZM)
4) Are my values above realistic
5) Is the 997GT3 a better car than my 996? Bearing in mind I don't like to be cosseted in a car that is easy to drive, i.e PSM etc.

Probably need to get a test drive in an RS and maybe also a Manthey car (Sunny, Ade!!!)

I actually prefer the look of my silver comfort for day to day, but also fancy an RS because its..... well..... an RS!

Help please!

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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:

1) Manthey mods, suspension K410 engine conversion, RS front bumper and air re-direction job, shortshift and LWFW. Cost must be at least 12k for that little lot.

12-15k...

2) Buy a GT3RS in Blue. Price will be upwards of 65k for the right one so, approx 10k on top of mine when I sell mine.

an option but you loose the versatility of the GT3 over the RS IMHO i.e. the RS is strictly a track car

3) Stick to my original plan and get a 997 GT3 in two years, hopefully price will be 60k, mine will be worth 45k?? So 15k to trade up?


could .. but you'll send 2 years regretting and who knows what will happen in 2 years


Questions (Hopefully Adrien, Glen and Sunny can chip in here)1) Will the Manthey mods above give me a car superior in day to day and track driving than an RS?

a difference and then some, Ade can explain better as he's had the full pre and post experience... after 6000 it just keeps going in all gears ! and the sound !

2) If I get an RS will I still hanker after the K410?

again that depends on how you view the RS, IMHO the K410 et al has closed the gap to the RS as I'm sure in the right hands this car would be quicker or matched.. (Ade ?)

3) Do you think that any of the manthey mods add value or will I get anything back come re-sale, suppose I could always return it to standard and flog the conversion parts (private or via JZM)

when they are in they are in, although I believe that the likes of Manthey have a value in the market, certainly added a few quid to the value of mine. with the name becoming more widespread Manthey can only be good

4) Are my values above realistic

...

5) Is the 997GT3 a better car than my 996? Bearing in mind I don't like to be cosseted in a car that is easy to drive, i.e PSM etc.

Porsche say it is so it must be, but a 417bhp K410 996 GT3 in full Manthey drag must be one hell of a car as well.....


happy to go for a spin at a TD, so that you can feel the force....



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Rob J
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by admin on 27December2006
Previous poster wrote:
happy to go for a spin at a TD, so that you can feel the force....




Lol

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't you have 3 cars in your sig pic now then? Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from the opinions that I've heard from other manthey owners, for the step up from a regular 911 to a GT3, then it is another step from GT3 to full Manthey spec... does that sound about right Ade ?

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poon
Sepang


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheers Sunny, would love to PX with you ate Oulton on the RS day, you going?

Is the RS really bad as a daily driver, and if so how does the manthey suspenesion set-up work on track and road?

Isn't a K410 more powerful than an RS?

Ade, where are you?

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Sepang


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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by So Poo on 27December2006
Shouldn't you have 3 cars in your sig pic now then? Wink



arh b@llocks Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:

Quote: Originally posted by poon on 27 December 2006

cheers Sunny, would love to PX with you ate Oulton on the RS day, you going?Is the RS really bad as a daily driver, and if so how does the manthey suspenesion set-up work on track and road?Isn't a K410 more powerful than an RS?Ade, where are you?


I'm at the Oulton day...

RS is IIRC 381 bhp as with normal GT3, so on the dyno mine has done 417 bhp so milk and beans are present and correct

remember the RS is lighter and thus more nimble, so there aint much between then.. but as I've never driven an RS I have limited knowledge..

as for the KW Manthey suspension, works VERY well on the road, my set up is Manthey Nurburgring set up, I was going to soften to help learn but I figured I would just toughen it out and learn the hard way


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poon
Sepang


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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RS is only 30kg lighter than comfort IIRC?

RS engines were handpicked from the bunch and should put out more than 381bhp, maybe I should have a chat with Steve at JZ, however we all know the outcome there!

Wallet says hello to Olaf!

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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when is the Oulton day BTW?

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2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by poon on 27 December 2006

RS is only 30kg lighter than comfort IIRC?RS engines were handpicked from the bunch and should put out more than 381bhp, maybe I should have a chat with Steve at JZ, however we all know the outcome there!Wallet says hello to Olaf!


cant comment on the RS, but better still take it to Manthey fly back and we can all go back out to pick it up....

Oulton in March, check the TD board ! but TD's before


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poon
Sepang


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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Location: Heffners Mansion

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Sundeep on 27December2006
Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by poon on 27December2006 RS is only 30kg lighter than comfort IIRC?
RS engines were handpicked from the bunch and should put out more than 381bhp, maybe I should have a chat with Steve at JZ, however we all know the outcome there!

Wallet says hello to Olaf! [/QUOTE]cant comment on the RS, but better still take it to Manthey fly back and we can all go back out to pick it up....
Oulton in March, check the TD board ! but TD's before


Its almost worth spunking the 15k just for the experience Wink

When is your first TD of 2007?

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2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silevrstone via Goldtrack on the 20th Jan

although tempted by Silverstone on the 13th Jan (assuming I can sneak out ?)


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Dunc
Barcelona


Joined: 26 Jan 2003
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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When buying my mk1 i was told that the first owner sold it to buy a mk2 and then bought an RS. He said that the mk1 was very close to the RS as his overall favourite - he used it as a regular road car (he's a doctor i think) as well as a track car.

My take on that was that the RS ain't that bad a road car. Think that they're stiff but only a handful on poor surfaces which, to be fair, most 3 variants have difficulty with.

I really like the mo of the RS and would've liked to have purchased one. Haven't driven one (yet) though so can't give my personal view of it as a road car.


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PolarExpress
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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry chaps, just got in after a late one tonight!

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by admin on 27December2006
Previous poster wrote:
1) Manthey mods, suspension K410 engine conversion, RS front bumper and air re-direction job, shortshift and LWFW. Cost must be at least 12k for that little lot.

12-15k...



Sounds about right... but get the Cup Steering Wheel for full effect... it's fantastic

2) Buy a GT3RS in Blue. Price will be upwards of 65k for the right one so, approx 10k on top of mine when I sell mine.

an option but you loose the versatility of the GT3 over the RS IMHO i.e. the RS is strictly a track car


The RS is a very nice TRACK car. If I had had the extra 25k budget when I bought my Mk1, then it would be an RS. But the problem is that after you ride in a Manthey'd GT3, the entire package is so much better that you will end up Manthey'ing the RS as well... something which a few have already done.

3) Stick to my original plan and get a 997 GT3 in two years, hopefully price will be 60k, mine will be worth 45k?? So 15k to trade up?

could .. but you'll send 2 years regretting and who knows what will happen in 2 years



If you are looking for thrills, I think you're better off hanging on to the 996GT3. The gains of the 997GT3 are mostly on the road where it is more 997C2S like...

Questions (Hopefully Adrien, Glen and Sunny can chip in here)

1) Will the Manthey mods above give me a car superior in day to day and track driving than an RS?

a difference and then some, Ade can explain better as he's had the full pre and post experience... after 6000 it just keeps going in all gears ! and the sound !


The Manthey KWs provide MUCH better damping and body control. The downside is that it is firmer over London roads, but it just feels so much more taught and controlled that you don't mind. In comparison, OEM suspension is crashy.

On track, there is no comparison. The MM KWs should have been OEM.

The K4XX conversion adds a LOT of torque in the low/mid range by advancing the timing through that section. In the upper range, the car breathes much easier through the revised manifolds/exhaust (and induction on K400) and allows the engine to really open up over the standard GT3. The sound, the response, the pull is tremendous. There's no single weak point throughout the range.

My car has been totally transformed into a new car compared to before. She has the enough torque to break traction in 2nd at 40mph in a straight line. She's a car I now treat with a LOT of respect because I know she can bite back much earlier if I'm not on top of my game... but exactly what I want: she's just the right side of being a wicked vixen... Twisted

2) If I get an RS will I still hanker after the K410?

again that depends on how you view the RS, IMHOthe K410 et al has closed the gap to theRS as I'm sure in the right hands thiscar would be quicker or matched.. (Ade ?)


Yes. A Manthey GT3 is quicker than an RS. Manthey'd GT3s have better body control, more power, and more torque throughout rev range.

3) Do you think that any of the manthey mods add value or will I get anything back come re-sale, suppose I could always return it to standard and flog the conversion parts (private or via JZM)

when they are in they are in, although I believe that the likes of Manthey have a value in the market, certainly added a few quid to the value of mine. with the name becoming more widespread Manthey can only be good


Manthey mods are the only mods worth any money on a used GT3. Proven upgrades, all TUV approved, developed at the 'Ring by the foremost experienced Porsche race team and company. If Manthey are good enough to run the Porsche Works teams for both the 996GT3 and were the first port of call by Roland Kussmaul to run the 997GT3RSRs at Spa earlier this year... then what Olaf doesn't know about the GT3 isn't worth knowing. Manthey mods cost a lot, but you get a lot too. That all Manthey upgrades are TUV approved is a welcome sign that they are fully developed/tested/proven for consumers. Imho, if Manthey had full manufacturing capabilities, they could easily surpass Ruf.

4) Are my values above realistic

...


Hard to say, but a 60k mile Manthey'd Mk1 GT3 sold for standard Mk2 money within a week of it going on sale a few months back. So I would say that the Manthey mods do have value. There simply aren't many fully Manthey'd GT3s in this country.

5) Is the 997GT3 a better car than my 996? Bearing in mind I don't like to be cosseted in a car that is easy to drive, i.e PSM etc.

Porsche say it is so it must be, but a 417bhp K410 996 GT3 in full Manthey drag must be one hell of a car as well.....

happy to go for a spin at a TD, so that you can feel the force....



ditto!


[/QUOTE]

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Dunc
Barcelona


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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrien - have you driven an RS on the road? I ask as you make out that they're no good for it. Are they that much worse than a garden 3?

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poon
Sepang


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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ade,

Thanks for the responses, so you would have had an RS if you had had the xtra 25k at the time you bought your 3, but would you say a fully Manthey'd 3 is a better proposition on the street and track than an RS.

re-sale wise the RS has to be a better proposition, i just prefer silver though! and leather, my interior is spot on!

Ade, maybe you and Sunny should get some GT3RS alike vinyl cut for the lower sides that say GT3 Manthey

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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Dunc on 28December2006
Adrien - have you driven an RS on the road? I ask as you make out that they're no good for it. Are they that much worse than a garden 3?


Sorry Dunc, I didn't intend to imply that they are no good for it as even the normal 3 is compromised compared to a regular 996. The standard RS suspension is better on track than the standard 3. But over normal roads, the RS doesn't flow as well as the standard 3 choosing to bounce in places where a normal 3 would just absorb. The RS is generally slightly more fidgety than a normal 3 although this could have been due to the geo settings of the particular car I drove. But the key area for me is that an RS is just less practical than a normal 3 for road use: witness plastic windows, no rear heating element etc.

But a Manthey suspended 3 is better than both a regular 3 and RS.

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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by poon on 28December2006
Ade,

Thanks for the responses, so you would have had an RS if you had had the xtra 25k at the time you bought your 3, but would you say a fully Manthey'd 3 is a better proposition on the street and track than an RS.

re-sale wise the RS has to be a better proposition, i just prefer silver though! and leather, my interior is spot on!

Ade, maybe you and Sunny should get some GT3RS alike vinyl cut for the lower sides that say GT3 Manthey


If you had an extra 25k, would you turn down an RS over a normal 3? Smile

I agree than an RS is a better resale proposition - but obviously this has nothing to do with the car's capabilities. Indeed, imho, a Manthey'd 3 is a more capable car than an RS. Mind you, we are talking 9/10ths here! I love the torquier feel of the Manthey. Whether it is better is more a subjective opinion.

And yes, I've been thinking of some vinyl for some time! But more along the lines of something more colourful... Wink
Manthey'd cars fly discretely with the badge of honour... Wink



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Dunc
Barcelona


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2000 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by oceancarrera on 28 December 2006

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Dunc on 28 December 2006

Adrien - have you driven an RS on the road? I ask as you make out that they're no good for it. Are they that much worse than a garden 3?

Sorry Dunc, I didn't intend to imply that they are no good for it as even the normal 3 is compromised compared to a regular 996. The standard RS suspension is better on track than the standard 3. But over normal roads, the RS doesn't flow as well as the standard 3 choosing to bounce in places where a normal 3 would just absorb. The RS is generally slightly more fidgety than a normal 3 although this could have been due to the geo settings of the particular car I drove. But the key area for me is that an RS is just less practical than a normal 3 for road use: witness plastic windows, no rear heating element etc.But a Manthey suspended 3 is better than both a regular 3 and RS.


Ok, see what you mean. It would certainly be more compromised as a daily driver in these respects. I'd have thought that with the multiple adjustments available on the RS it could be set up to drive however one wished and could be 'retarded' towards std. 3 settings to make it more roady.

I can appreciate that of all the tuners Manthey know the 3 intimately and if i were to modify my car they're certainly the route i'd go.However, I like the idea of a std. car that does all i need 'out the box' and think that the RS will certainly become a rare and collectible car as time passes. Kinda like the way the mk1 is going just now.

Poon - the way i see it is it's more a choice of whether you'd like to improve your current steed by permanently modifying it. Or buying a factory std. RS and keeping it that way in the interests of purism. There are good arguments for both camps!


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