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Craig Dent
Newbie


Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Great Britain


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


New to forum.


Have tried in vain to obtain roadtest info on 964RS prior to pursuing purchase, just to ensure that it is the Porsche for me. Previous history mainly competition Astons ( ex wks Zagato & DB4GT), L/W E Type etc. Only driven one Porsche, in 1990 ( 3.3 turbo cab from Leicester to Orleans) which I enjoyed.


Now returning to a kind-of sporting vehicle after a few years in the wilderness & the RS seems to have the balance of practicality / sporting heritage etc but CANNOT find an accessible report.


Can anybody guide me in the right direction?


Craig Dent


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pokemon
Silverstone


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 103
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig

Here you go:

http://www.porsche964.co.uk/

Some articles on 964RS, 993RS.

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James Ball
Suzuka


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure where this came from. Might have been Pistonheads. Not a road test but could be useful anyway.

964RS
A Buyers Guide



There have been buyers guides to most of the Porsche range in many magazines and the 964 range has been well covered. However the 964 RS is such a different beast to the Carrera 2 and 4 that I thought it was about time to cover it in more detail. The following applies to the basic/lightweight versions of the RS and LHD specifically. I will touch on RHD and touring versions at the end of the text.



So lets start by looking at the obvious and the not so obvious changes that set the RS apart from the standard C2. From the outside the most obvious change is to the ride height of the car. Lowered 40mm with the use of 40% stiffer springs and uniball solid top mountings the RS has a purposeful stance. Wheels are 7.5 front and 9 rear and are of the Cup design and made of magnesium alloy. Underneath you will find adjustable anti roll bars front and rear. The rear trailing arms are also shorter than the C2 items to produce more positive handling. One interesting note about the attention that Porsche paid to detail with the suspension is that they specify that the locking wheel-nuts should fit opposite the tyre valves and this locking nut should in turn, be fitted to the red dot marked wheel stud! What is not so obvious to the eye is the fitting of an aluminium front bonnet and a revised rear middle section to the rear bumper. Both bumpers incidentally are made of de-formable plastic and this can be confirmed by light pressure on these panels. Thinner gauge glass was fitted except to the front screen. Front wings were lipped around the arches for tyre clearance. Dont go thinking that those front fog lights work either as they are just covers! With many owners replacing these for brake cooling ducts. If you take more of a look underneath you will find that there is no underbody sealant although the plastic wheel arch covers remain. Brakes are from the 3.3 Turbo at the front and sport four pot callipers and drilled and ventilated discs. Rear brakes have four pot calipers but with smaller pistons, discs are drilled and ventilated. Incidentally the RS keeps the Carrera 4s high pressure braking system for better braking response, ABS is standard but features a modified program more in keeping with a race car. That just about covers the outside. What about the engine, drive-train and interior?



The engine is designated M64/03(which should be stamped on the case) and is basically a standard Carrera 2, 3.6l flat six. However the engine uses matched pistons and barrels and does away with the dual mass flywheel for a more free revving standard single mass item. The ECU was also revised to extract an extra 10 hp making 260hp total. The gearbox marked G50/10 features a limited slip differential revised gearing and the gear stick is actually slightly taller and offset for a smoother shift. Steering in LHD cars has the benefit of no power assistance, except arm power!



The interior of the RS is spartan to say the least. Two leather covered Recaro bucket seats replace the Carrera 2/4 electric items, there are no back seats(just a lighter carpet with the Carrera RS logo) and the steering wheel is also embossed with the RS logo. Door panels also received the racing look with no door bins and a simple pull strap to open the door. All carpet is of a thin weave material. A radio was an option and cars came with provision for fitting but no speakers and a simple blanking plate. Their is no interior light but the glovebox light somehow escaped the bin. In terms of electric luxuries, forget it, there is not even a heated rear screen! Although the element still remains the wiring is not there. The standard heater does however remain(thank goodness). You will also have to master the old art of winding down the windows and adjusting the mirrors by hand !



The front luggage compartment lid is held up by a simple stay and the luggage compartment itself is sparsely trimmed. You will also find a master battery kill switch. The windscreen washer bottle only holds a couple of litres and can be found on the left. Contrary to some articles there was no strut brace as standard! Though this is a popular addition fitted by many owners.



Further to all the above the bodyshell was stiffened and also modified to make allowance for lack of rear seats.



So now you know the differences, what should you do when viewing a potential purchase? The first step should happen before you ever see the car. First attain that the car has a full service history. Dont touch a car without a service history, ask yourself why it hasnt got one, remember these are cherished supercars, histories just arent lost! Try also to get an idea from the owner about the cars condition and whether it has had money spent on it. Enquire about whether the car has suffered any crash damage, dont necessarily be put off by a car that has been repaired but try to ascertain that it has been repaired properly. The RS
was designed to be used on the race track and many owners take part in track day events or even races and hill climbs. Accidents do happen and because the RS lends itself so well to track day fun and the fact that the car can be tricky and demands respect and skill at the limit, their are a lot of accident damaged RSs out there( in fact I would go so far as to say there are very few now, without some crash damage). But the cars are very strong and a well repaired example will give you rewarding service even if its not quite concours anymore.



So you have now chatted with the owner and you decide to go for a look. Take a good look around the car, check shut lines and obvious damage, if the owner has been honest he might even show you around the car and point out what has been repaired. Dont forget that the front and rear bumpers should deform with light pressure, if they dont they have been replaced and the car has had some drama front or rear or both! Open the bonnet and remove the carpet the spare wheel area should be clean and tidy. Look for the compressor for the spare wheel and the tool kit, then check that the tool kit has all the correct tools (particularly the towing eye and fan belt nut spanner) these can be expensive to replace. The floor panel should be free of ripples, seam sealed welds should not show excesses of sealer, indicating a possible poor repair. The bonnet should have its original paper data sticker, if not the bonnet has been repaired. A magnet will confirm that the car has the correct aluminium bonnet! Check that the car has its original magnesium wheels and that they are in serviceable condtion (you wont want to pay for a new set!). If the wheels require refurbishment this can be expensive and is a good haggling point, likewise the tyres should all be legal and preferably with plenty of tread left. If the car has aftermarket wheels but you are not concerned with originality all well and good but do try to ascertain that they have the correct offsets and arent fouling the wheel arches!

Whilst under the bonnet check the chassis number matches both the log book and the service book and that it matches the plate found under the tank (or on later cars on the windscreen pillar) and of course that it is an RS chassis number! The number should begin WPOZZZ96ZNS49. Close the bonnet
<Sorry previous link not available after migration>
, are they even! Now look around the roof gutter line and windscreen pillars, overspray, cracking paint etc all suggest crash damage and in the roof area suggests that the car could have been on its roof! Now open the engine lid and cast your eyes down the flanks of the arches. Do all the spot welds look even? Is there excessive seam sealant more one side than the other? Once again suspect drama at the rear. Good quality repairs will largely be free of these faults and indeed a top class repair will be very hard to spot! Whilst in the engine bay take a look at the engine and check its engine number, which can be found (with a torch) on the RHS on the fan pedestal. Does it look well looked after! Grubby engines dont necessarily mean poorly looked after, but a clean engine gets brownie points in my book.

Now lets take a look at the interior. First of take a general look around does it look clean and tidy. Many owners fit roll cages and harnesses and these can be a good or bad selling point depending on your view. My own view is that you will almost certainly take the car on track at some point and as your enthusiasm and experience grows, harnesses become necessary and the cage will give you piece of mind. Take a look under the dash, is it tidy or spaghetti junction. Poor wiring will give you problems and there should be no reason for a car so young to have its wiring pulled about, ask yourself why!

Do the seats and gearshift reflect the cars mileage. There are a lot of clocked Porsches out there. Do the colours match the original spec! Do all the switches knobs etc work! What there are of them!



Once satisfied with the above checks its time for the fun bit. The test drive. Lets not get carried away, first things first. Start the engine, it should start first time and all warning lights except the spoiler should go out within about 15 sec. If the engine is cold a small cloud of oil smoke is perfectly normal on start up but should not persist. Dont confuse oil smoke with water vapour either, condensation gathers inside the exhaust and will be burnt off after a few minutes. The engine should idle cleanly but may stall easily when cold. You may hear a chattering from the gearbox whilst still at rest this is normal and is the clutch release mechanism, if you depress the clutch the noise should go! Be prepared, engine and gearbox noise will be much greater than in a standard car due the lack of sound proofing. A certain amount of diff chatter at low speed may be heard and is normal. There should obviously be no clunks from the suspension or steering when on the move. The ride will be ultra firm, I recall one contemporary tester describing the action of the suspension over potholes as like a rubber mallet on wood! Steering at low speeds will be heavy but lightens up nicely when pushing on. Check that the clutch action is smooth and that the engine pulls cleanly. The car should track straight and true on flat uncambered roads but will almost certainly wander a little if the surface becomes poor or rutted. Brakes should be tried on straight and level ground and well away from other traffic. The stopping power should have your eyeballs out!! Dont expect to get the ABS working in the dry unless driving like a maniac (not recommended). A flat grass field may work if the owners willing (would you!). If you can persuade the owner, get the car put up on a four post lift and take a good look at the underside. Even the most mechanically inept can spot an oil leak! Whilst youre there check the cars underside and suspension for damage and general condition.



Test drive and checks over and suitably impressed, now go and study the service history and log book. Be sure to take a thorough look and try to establish through the records that the mileage is genuine and that all things add up, phone a previous owner if you can to ascertain that what is written is true. The next part is up to you and largely depends on your expertise, bravery or stupidity! If you are at all doubtful of your ability to asses the car or you require extra piece of mind, then the next thing to do is get the car checked out by a specialist. This step is most recommended as he/she can confirm the engine and mechanical state of health and may be able to comment on body condition and crash damage repair.



If you have come this far I guess you want to know how much to pay for the object of your desire? At the time of writing excellent low mileage 0-30k km crash free un-tracked cars are becoming like rocking horses and I would advise if you own one, LOOK AFTER IT (I speak from bitter experience) 29k is probably the lowest your are going to find an RS in that condition, 32k should buy you something truly like new and a car you will want to own forever. Next level down is the higher mileage car probably tracked but not crashed and the nicely repaired lower mileage cars. All should have good histories and the crashed examples should be well repaired, possibly with a Porsche Bodyshop warranty. Expect to pay between 24K-28k depending on condition, mileage. Next level down from this are the generally high mileage cars with some damage and lower mileage cars with repairs that are sound but not pretty, or cars that require work to bring them up to spec. These arent basket cases and are good usable buys and represent something of a performance bargain and a potent track day weapon, though possibly not the nicest looking examples. Expect to pay 21-24k.

RSs can be found for less but there is usually a reason for these cars being so cheap and often these cars can be highly suspect in one way or another! Anything in the sub 20k bracket will probably be a poorly repaired black hole for bank notes. My advice would be to steer clear, unless you are particularly brave or stupid (just delete what does not apply). Finally have a contingency fund of about 1k-5k depending on the condition of the car for unexpected bills. Even the nicest low mileage like factory new car will probably want a suspension set up and some new tyres! A not so low mileage one will almost certainly need it, especially if you intend to get the most out of your new charge on track.



Finally
I said at the beginning that I would touch on RHD and touring. The main difference to RHD spec is power steering. There were very few UK RHD examples made and some cars were imported from Japan and other RHD markets. Expect to add at least 10k to the average LHD price for any RHD car. The touring model was basically a Carrera 2 with the RS body and suspension, more comfortable sports seats and dual mass flywheel and all the electric toys you could wish for, even a sun roof. This article has perhaps just skimmed the surface and I have not even touched upon the Clubsport and similar spec cup models. Until next time..




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pokemon
Silverstone


Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 103
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

You plagiarised Laurence's article Wink
He might sue you 000's only if you're lucky as he is not JK Rowling Twisted

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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear, I think we've just run out of disk space!

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nick-moss
Monza


Joined: 28 Jan 2003
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Location: East Sussex


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From
MCP Motorsport

"Extract from Performance Car Magazine 1992This is Porsches finest road creation since the 73RS.First impressions are of a car that is genuinely hard to fault so when Porsche talks of the new RS as 'the rebirth of a legend', don't scoff. The first test car I ever drove as a journalist was one of the original 2.7 litre Carrera RS's, one of the limited edition lightweight cars at the time. Nothing else I have ever driven, no matter how quick, gave the slightest hint of the chilling ferocity of that duck-tailed RS in full flight; nothing has approached the astounding mixture of grip and razor sharp response, the awesome stopping power, the glorious noise - the whole racer's-edge feel of a true classic. For eighteen years the raw excitement of that first RS experience has been a hard act to follow, even for some of the major league Supercars that I've driven with fair regularity ever since. At Zolder, the new RS brought some long remembered, seldom-repeated feelings flooding back. If it's as good on the road as it is on the circuit - and there is nothing at all to suggest it won't be - it has every chance of going down as one of the all time greats. And that I promise you is not an exaggeration. Cost new 48.000 - Performance 0-62 in 5.3sec, 0-100 in 11.9sec, Topout 164mph Stripped to its bare essentials, the 911RS offer a racecar feel for the road. For 9.500 more than the basic 911 Carrera you get wind-up windows instead of push button electrics, smart webbing loop door pulls that weigh nothing, no air conditioning, no central locking, high sided lightweight front seats, thinner glass, an alloy front luggage lid and 260bhp instead of 250bhp. "






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Craig Dent
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Joined: 18 Jun 2003
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Location: Great Britain


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou all for your keen interest. Nick Moss has written exactly what I needed to read-----------just the car for me: slight reservation, nobody has said if one could endure the din over a number of hours of fast continental travel? Any comment?

We're getting closer.



Craig Dent




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noony
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil, it says you are a guest?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

- fixed now! I'm in the process of integerating the site user databases, hence we now have thousands of members. Things might look odd here and there for a couple of days until everything is sorted out!

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James Ball
Suzuka


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig. I have test driven a couple of 964 RS's and would say that they are noisy, and not the perfect mode of transport for trans-continental travel (hard suspension, pretty noisy) but that it is bearable. A 964 RS Clubsport on the other hand is probably another story.


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James Ball
Suzuka


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig.

"If it's as good on the road as it is on the circuit - and there is nothing at all to suggest it won't be - it has every chance of going down as one of the all time greats."

A word of warning about the 964 RS. Contary to the article Nick posted the 964 RS is definitely not as good on the road as it is on a circuit - and this is coming from the car's number one fan. The suspension is too unforgiving for most B roads and probably a lot of A roads too. In this respect, the 993 RS is a lot better. If you buy a 964 RS do it in the knowledge that if the road surface is bumpy you will have to back off a bit. If it is wet, you will have to back off a lot. The 964RS is really at home on table-top-smooth circuits, and here is really shines. Most road tests of the time absolutely slated the 964RS's suspension on back roads. In a recent "best Porsche's ever" report in I forget which magazine, the 964 RS was called one of Porsche's biggest mistakes! Now this is clearly a load of crap but it does highlight a "characteristic" of the car.

Just so you know....

James


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