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paul b
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi

just joined the 911 site as i am looking to buy an older 911(69 -73)...all the usual questions........ like laurence olivier said in marathon man......... " is it safe !!!"

have spoken to fuchs and they seem obsesed with waxoyl , rust and
polishing alloys !!!! oh and door pockets !!!

i have thought about a 912 but although i like the look...is it a VW in a 911 body?

where do i go to find one...the few on this site seem good....is this best and get an inspection........and who is good for porsche inspections

so many questions (that i bet you have never heard before!!!!)

anyway looking forward to ownership shortly......i am doing it all backwards...i have 3rd child arriving in 2 weeks and i am selling T5 volvo estate !!!!

posrche and a people carrier !


paul

i want an old 911

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James Ball
Suzuka


Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 1060
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul

Buying a 911 can be an easy process or a very difficult one. For some reason I have made it a very difficult one and after 2 years of looking I still haven't got one - there are lots of reasons for that though that I won't go into.

To start to answer some of your questions:

1) Yes it is safe. Buying a 30 yr old car is always a bit of a risk but the informed buyer needn't fear. Early 911s are probably the most reliable "classic" cars you can buy but as with any classic you must be realistic about the TLC they require and the performance they provide. Technology has come a long way since the first 911S.

2) Fuchs are a pretty good outfit. Not all their cars are A1 condition and they are a little expensive but they know their stuff. You cannot own a non-galvanised 911 (pre-'76) without having a constant battle with rust on your hands. Even the newer, galvanised SC's and Carrera 3.2s are starting to suffer from rust now. Waxoyl is a great treatment to hold back the onset of rust but it is not a cure. However well you treat and store you early 911 it WILL rust - you may not be able to see it it will be there.

The first 912's with the 356 engine are great cars in their own right. Arguably better balanced than contemporary 911s they are not drag racers but are great sportscars. Having said that I wouln't buy one myself - I know that I would always wonder whether I should have bought the "real thing".

When it comes to buying an early 911 I think the best option is to go to places like Fuchs, Tower Porsche in London etc and drive lots. Get a real feel for the cars and for the different engines. 911s evolved about every 2 yrs and the characters of the cars changed a lot. This will also help you spot a good one from a bad one. I would then look to buy one privately. You will get a better price and I don't think the waranty that lots of these garages offer is worth a thing. Join the smartgroups email list and ask the "experts" if they know of any good cars. You want one that has a fully Documented history, ideally with photographic records of any serious work ie bodywork, engine or gearbox rebuild. You also want to find an original car with its original engine and gearbox. There are lots of 2.7 Carrera RS replicas out there with more modern engines. These cars will never hold their value as well as an original car. Also I would avoid "T"s - no offense to those who own them. They don't have the power you associate with a 911 and are not that much cheaper than the much better E's and S's.

Finally, do your research. On another thread on this board I listed a few books that I think are really helpful in understanding a) the differences between models and b) what to look for. A few quid spent upfront on books might save you thousands of pounds and much heart-ache later. Also, do get a PPI done. The challenge is to find someone in your area. Where are you? If someone here can't point you in the right direction someone on Smartgroups should be able to.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

Cheers, James


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paul b
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks james

its a minefiled.....but the looking is as good as the getting to my mind!!

saw this one at www.themeeks.co.uk , which has good records
but its a 911 T.......i may want the performance of an "s"...im sure you rae right........do all these cars have to be garaged do you think?

again many thanks for the advice...i will keep you informed

paul

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James Ball
Suzuka


Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 1060
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul. It would be worth driving a T to see what you think. Also, in real terms the E and S are not that different - the E has more usable torque whereas the S is high-reving hp.

Re garages, yes I think they all need to be undercover, ideally in a dehumidified environment (e.g. Carcoon). I wouldn't want to buy one that wasn't at least garaged.


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Jamie Summers
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 883
Location: Esher, Surrey

1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

Whilst a Porsche of any age is probably rather better at withstanding the rigours of outdoor life than equivalent English or Italian sports cars of a similar age, by leaving it outside you will inevitably accelerate the rate of corrosion and deterioration.

Again a lot of this comes down to what you intend to use the car for. If you are intending to use the car daily and let it warm up properly and give it a decent run you'll probably be ok keeping it outdoors bizzarely, however if you only use it occasionally and it stays outside getting covered in leaves and dust and other rubbish a) your chances of it starting when you want it to will be reduced and b) you'll be amazed how quickly it will start to deteriorate generally (any early car that you would want to buy would, I'm almost certain, have been garaged for most of its life). My 89 3.2, which I have had for 6 months, lives on-street in London, prior to my purchase I'm pretty sure it was always garaged, and already you can tell that it has been living outside - it's unbelievable how quickly moss starts to grow, and dirt gets ingrained into things !

I would strongly suggest that if you do intend to go for an early car at least go for a 2.4 as by then they had started to galvanise the floorpans, going some way to improving its corrosion resistance. If your car really has to live outside I would definitely buy a really good quality fitted car cover.


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paul b
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks jamie

i will be pparking off road in london too and have looked at the " car coon " covers (!)...may look bizarre though......i will be drivinh it at least every other day and i promise to always wash it and ppolish etc etc !!!!

thats how it starts i suppose....whether i keep it up who knows....thanks for the advice re floor pans....trouble is i rreallly llike the classic 911's up to 72/73...the fuchs allots and chrome bits etc

well see

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carlh
Newbie


Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Posts: 7
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello chaps

interesting conversation , and i see j summers has an 89 3.2 911, me too.

As for all you expert advice which i would fully support. I bought mine from a website. I had never even sat in a porsche, let alone drive one. and the mechanics of any car are beyond my understanding or interest.

I just have always adored 911 and wanted an earlier one.

Problems, ive had a few in fact in my 20 months ownership it has cost on average 220 per month in fixing and bits - not good I know.

But you know what, we drive the best looking cars on the road.

enjoy

c




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Jamie Summers
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 883
Location: Esher, Surrey

1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

I had a look at the Meeks.co.uk site - wow, that's pretty thorough - really nice looking car though. Do keep in mind what other people have said about keeping things original - I think in this case all of the mods are acceptable ones and shouldn't detract from the value - that said it's certainly not the cheapest I've seen around !

Re. Car Coons - a near neighbour of mine keeps an early 80s Lotus Elite (?) in one of those, and if it's worth it for a dog of a car like that (although I vaguely remember thinking they were cool and Porsches were ugly back in the early 80s - how things change !), then it must be for a proper classic car ! Wink

As for what Carl says about his buying experience I suppose I fit somewhere in between the extremes. I did as much research as I could on the net and by reading mags and was pretty sure I knew exactly what I wanted and supposedly the things to look out for and then promptly went ahead and bought the first one I actually sat in !!!!! You know what they say about the best laid plans !

While I don't exactly regret buying the car that I did - it was everything I wanted (even down to colour - and I know your not supposed to worry too much about that, buy on condition etc. etc etc .), but I'm sure if I'd gone to the effort of looking at and driving a few more cars I would have found one just as good for probably just a bit less money. Unfortunately my hand was rather forced as the nice man from the insurance company had just written off my 205 following a shunt with a black cab just as I was starting to look seriously for a Porsche so I was 'sans voiture'.

Anyway waffling aside I suppose the lesson is - if you have time to spend looking then make sure you do. Do as much reading up and see as many cars as you can. If you rush in, you might be lucky and buy a belter, equally your chances of buying a dog are higher and then you'll hate yourself !!!

Jamie


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paul b
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im glad to see im not the only one who has considered buying a 911 from the net !!!!

now ive started looking at 964's too !!! and 3.0 and 3.2....i sold the idea to my heavily preganat wife that with an old one it was cheap to insure and tax etc....maybe i will just lie and get a newer faster one!!!!

is insurance horrendeous if they are not " classic "

i have full bonus , off street in london , clean licence , 39 (not looking for a quote by the way!!!)just feedback before i spend a day on the phone!!!!

you guys seem to be more knowledgeable.....whats the best to buy to enter 911 land for up to 15k

paul

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paul b
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 48
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ive bought the books from amazon.....burnt out my broadband for two weeks trawling google on the net and now im more confused.....i just want one!!!

is the 2.7 a bad choice?

ill do what jamie did...sit in one , love it buy it and repent at leisure
how has james managed to spend two years....what self control!!!!

i havn't even sold the the old volvo the car is replacing yet !!!!!

i even looked on e bay !!!!

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Rushjob
Newbie


Joined: 08 Dec 2002
Posts: 43
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul - re insurance - our '89 C2 costs 506 through Norwich Union Direct - not bad. We do have the advantage of Max NCB but I was expecting at least 750 when we were shopping around.

As regards buying the first one you see - I nearly fell into this trap but when I first went for a look I purposefully took no money with me.

On returning the next day with cash and a good mate as devils advocate, the gorgeous looking immaculate beast I'd seen aday before turned out to have had at least two crap resprays,a new front offside corner, some dodgy welding and a car full of electrical gremlins.

As the song says,"Walk on by......."

One other thing I ended up considering was to take along a dictionary to show vendors what " clean " and " immaculate " really mean as some folk obviously don't have the same definitions as the rest of us!

Good Luck

Andy


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gregsy
Silverstone


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 128



PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

With 15k to spend on a 911 for everyday use and to be parked outside go for a 3.2 Carrera with a G50 box, you will get a nice one with FPSH for that sort of money, fully galvanised, with an engine thats easier to maintain and less leaky than the newer 964, if you go for an earlier model you will be forever repairing new rust bubbles if left outside to the elements. You will be able to get classic insurance for almost any 911, I even have modern classic insurance on my 993 because its a second car. Try AON classic or Heritage insurance for a quote.

Greg


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Philly
Trainee


Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carl H said:

"Problems, ive had a few in fact in my 20 months ownership it has cost on average 220 per month in fixing and bits - not good I know."

If you had bought something like a Renault Laguna/Ford Mondeo you would have lost more than this on depreciation! This is how I try and look at it - at least the money you spent has resulted in upgrades to your car (and appreciation in value???)

And in the meantime you've been driving and enjoying something very special.


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Philly
Trainee


Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul B said:

"i have full bonus , off street in london , clean licence , 39 (not looking for a quote by the way!!!)just feedback before i spend a day on the phone!!!!you guys seem to be more knowledgeable.....whats the best to buy to enter 911 land for up to 15k"

Paul, have a look on a recent thread on this board re. insurance. Then call Carole Nash Insurance.

If you are OK with restricted mileage and don't need regular business use then I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

This pre-supposes that you are looking for something "older". With 15k I would absolutely go for a 84-89 3.2 Carrera. You should be able to get a good one for under 13k, leaving 2k over to cover running costs for a while.

As it happens, I spent a bit less money and got an '85 with the older (915) gearbox and I think it's great. You could get a 964 for 15k, but pristine ones will be more and there's lots of things that can go wrong on a 964 that hasn't been 100% cared for.


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swaite3
Newbie


Joined: 11 Oct 2002
Posts: 29
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would definately go with carole nash for the insurance - 280 with no question about no claims (although i have 5 years), 5k annual mileage and a years rac cover included.

this is for my 1986 3.2 carrera targa. you also get discount if you're a member of the pcgb. i'm 32 by the way and live in leeds.

i called a couple of other companies after getting the quote and when i told them i had the quote from carole nash they said i wouldn't get a better one!

as far as running costs go, i've had mine 4 months (using it every day) and it's cost me 24.00 so far which is nice!!!!

wouldn't swap it for the world at the moment, i may try a turbo or a rally version at some point in the future.

steve


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James Ball
Suzuka


Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 1060
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a question before about the 2.7 cars. In answer, no they are not "bad" cars but have a very bad reputation. In hotter climates than ours they suffered from over-heating caused by some very restricive ati-pollution bits and pieces but that shouldn't be an issue here. However, if you are looking to buy a 2.7 I would recommend researching this particular model very carefully, aquaint yourself with all the mods that are generally recommended and then find a car which has had them all done. A nice 2.7 is bound to be cheaper than a nice 3.0 and isn't all that much slower.

Something else to bear in mind is that there a two different 2.7 litre engines. In 1974/75 there was a model called the Carrera 2.7. This used the engine from the infamous Carrera 2.7 RS and it is an absolute screamer - the last engine to use MFI. At the same time there was a 2.7 engine using CIS fuel injection and this the the slightly dodgy one. Personally I wouldn't go for a 2.7 but there are lots of reasons to see them as good value buys.

James


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Jamie Summers
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 883
Location: Esher, Surrey

1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

It's got to be a 3.2 all the way ! (But then I would say that wouldn't I !) As others have said 15 should buy you a belter ! I'm sure you've seen that 15 does indeed by you a 964, and probably not a bad one if you are prepared to go for lhd, but given the list of things that could go wrong and cost you lots of wedge I would go for a 3.2 G50 - the later the model year you find, the more kit you get. Don't be put off by high mileage so long as everything that should have been done has been done and it is all Documented etc.

Re. insurance - have a look at some of the other threads on here, but mine cost 840 for 5000 miles parked on-street in London, protected no-claims bonus and 25yr old girlfriend as named driver (I'm 26) - all through Admiral. I was very surprised as this was they lowest quote I got by a mile (including Carole Nash who weren't interested !)

Jamie


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