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eelblady
Newbie


Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: UFO in sump! Reply with quote



Imagine my joy and surprise when this bolt emerged from the sump of my 996 attached to the magnetic drain plug last week!

It appears to be a M6 allen headed bolt with approx. 25mm of thread, well chewed and with some evidence of stripped thread from whatever it was previously attached to

I'm wondering how worried I should be and where it might have come from. Car runs fine with no adverse noises or such like. If it had come loose in my ownership, I think I'd have heard it rattle through the engine so I'm assuming it has been there for some time

It is a 2002 3.6 C4 Tip with 117k miles. The engine has not been apart in the 7000 miles and 2 years that I've had it. It came to me freshly serviced, I changed the oil and installed the magnetic plug this time last year.

Previous owner had it for 2 years and 28,000 miles with no apparent engine work.

I've got some receipts going back to 2015 which indicates AOS and oil filler pipe where replaced in March that year. Could that bolt have anything to do with the work to change the oil filler pipe?

Grateful for any thoughts
 
  
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Paynewright
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 17 Apr 2018
Posts: 262
Location: Nr Lutterworth Leics


PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully Hartec Baz or DeMort will be along shortly to say where its from.
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8660
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a bolt from the camshaft area, they are similar for the tappet chest, a big worry is, it looks like it took some heavy hits on its was down to the sump?

It could have been there for years but now you have fitted the mag sump plug it's raised its ugly head.
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Billy Bumpsteer
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 12 Aug 2019
Posts: 329



PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone dropped a coil pack bolt when changing plugs? Dont know
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7620
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Bumpsteer wrote:
Someone dropped a coil pack bolt when changing plugs? Dont know


Dropped it where? If it went down the plug hole it wouldn't make it to the sump.

I don't recognise the unthreaded end on the bolt.

MC
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7962
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. 11 here is my best guess ..

https://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?MAK=3&MDL=25&TBL=2523&SMA=&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0

All you can do is drop the sump pan and have a look .
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8660
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
I don't recognise the unthreaded end on the bolt.


Me too, its not a bolt I recognise from the M96 engine with the waisted end but the engine has obviously been apart at some point in its life so someone may have used a generic bolt instead of buying the correct ones?
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8660
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:
No. 11 here is my best guess ..

https://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?MAK=3&MDL=25&TBL=2523&SMA=&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0

All you can do is drop the sump pan and have a look .


It wouldn't have far to go if it was already in the sump and that bolt has taken a few blows from moving engine parts, there is nothing in the sump that could do that?

Plus that is showing as a hex head bolt?

I was thinking number 18 here?

https://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?TBL=2518&MAK=3&MDL=25&SMA=0&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0


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Last edited by infrasilver on Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7962
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading your thoughts on this then i'm of the opinion it's possibly no.47 .. its a head bolt under the chain guide .. if lose it will run the gauntlet of the timing chain before entering the sump ..

If it was a cam cover bolt then i think there would be some serious issues .. it still can be but i don't remember a washer as part of these bolts .

I think a bolt here would also stay in the head .

Granted it's been a long time since ive done an engine rebuild though .

If i'm correct then it can be left and not worry about .. if your correct then i would want to strip the cam covers and find out to be honest as i'm worried just thinking about it .

No offence young man .. i rarely question what other people post here as we all have our own opinion .. its just i think we need to get to the bottom of this and i never have a problem with being wrong .

More suggestions please .. infrasilver your thoughts ?
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She's not going until july 2020 though .



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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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Joined: 04 Oct 2010
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Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been through my engine internal pictures and the only socket heads I can see are the cam and tappet chest, these all have an integrated washer but they will struggle to get to the sump but its not impossible? But if I remember these are all over 25mm long. It think is foreign to the engine with having a waisted end.




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Last edited by infrasilver on Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7620
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a feeling the ones in the 3.4l are 30 or 35mm long, definately with washer. I think one of those is most likely to.

MC
 
  
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eelblady
Newbie


Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the thoughts on this.

It is hard to measure it as the head is bent around but I'm pretty sure it would have been 25mm inc. the waisted end.

If it is a foreign bolt that is too short for where it was supposed to be that might explain it coming loose.

Assuming it was used as a cam or tappet chest bolt, how much room is there in that area for a bolt to wind all the way out?
 
  
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kurlykris
Sepang


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 2783
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bolt length is measured from under the head or washer, to the end of the thread, so this excludes the head length Thumb

Standard sizes would be 8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 20mm, 25mm and 30mm and so on in 5mm increments Grin
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8660
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tappet chest bolts can wind out all of the way, there is easily enough room.

They are the bolts in the above picture sat back in the base of the head. I've edited the picture to circle those bolts


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Last edited by infrasilver on Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Newbe
Trainee


Joined: 21 Apr 2019
Posts: 90



PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me the marks all look similar in impact. Which would mean it struck the same thing multiple times. There all a V type strike.

Also quite a small V given the size of the bolt.

likely the timing chain?
 
  
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eelblady
Newbie


Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 23



PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again all - this place is so helpful.

Tappet chest area seems favourite; cam shaft retaining tool and all that worries me though; may have to fast forward that pre-emptive rebuild I've been contemplating..
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8660
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF it is a tappet chest bolt it is not really that much of a worry to lose a single bolt but what it hit on the way to the sump would be my main concern. The chains aren't the strongest and can snap under heavy loads with minimal mileage on them, don't ask me how i know this but there is a full thread on it if you want to scare yourself.

As a minimum I would want to take the cam covers off and get a scope down the cam chain channels to try to identify any marks on the other engine internals.
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