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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s been interesting doing some research, I hadn’t really paid any attention to engines after the M97, so it made the time on the Eurostar pass productively!
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My 996, AKA Project Ridiculous
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See attached.. Can see the tank at the rear of the engine.
 



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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive the phone format
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DarthFaker
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well there we go! From the horses mouth, regarding dry sump.

I spent a bit of time yesterday on the phone to a well known specialist who shall remain anonymous, they were quite frank about the suitability of the M96 for track use, something along the lines of:

"If you don't want it to blow up and you can't afford the chance of it blowing up, then simply don't track it,. There's nothing you can do to resolve the inherent issues within the M96 for 100% reliable track use, buy a Turbo or a GT3 if you want to track it regularly"

Which I think is pretty sound advice, if your pockets are endlessly deep and you're racing the M96 in a race series such as PCGB I'd imagine a spare engine is neither here nor there.

My funds are not endless, I have a budget and I don't think the cost of a £9-12k rebuild factors into my costings for the odd track day a year.
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did they say what they believe the unfixable inherent issues were?
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DarthFaker
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Length between flywheel and first crank bearing.
Crankshaft hardening process thickness
Crankshaft cradle flex.
Rod bolt deformation.

Amongst other things, basically the premise of the conversation was the M96 is a road engine and the Mezger is a track engine.

I'm sure most of these issues could be resolved with a huge re-engineering and rebuild process of this engine and I'm sure some specialists are out there who can do this, but I don't think it's a feasible solution, when the price difference between what I paid for my C4 Aero Kit and a bottom of the market Turbo is less than a total re-engineering of the M96 platform.
 
  
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DarthFaker
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I can tell even the cooking variety 9A1 engine in the Carrera with it's quasi wet/dry sump lubrication system with 4 scavenging pumps is far more track suitable than the M96/M97 engines.

There was a lot of cost cutting involved in the 996/997 platforms, it's evident everywhere, it doesn't detract from the driving experience, but they're not built like they used to be, and if you want one built like they used to be you need to fork out for a GT3 it seems.

I'd sell my right testicle for a 993 at this point. Floor
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthFaker wrote:
Length between flywheel and first crank bearing.
Crankshaft hardening process thickness
Crankshaft cradle flex.
Rod bolt deformation.


Hartech fit an additional bearing to support the crank and stop crankshaft deformation which resolves 1, 2 and 3.

The rod-bolt deformation is interesting - do you have more detail on that?
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
DarthFaker wrote:
Length between flywheel and first crank bearing.
Crankshaft hardening process thickness
Crankshaft cradle flex.
Rod bolt deformation.


Hartech fit an additional bearing to support the crank and stop crankshaft deformation which resolves 1, 2 and 3.

The rod-bolt deformation is interesting - do you have more detail on that?


Look up the video from flat six innovations of an engine failure on track on YouTube.

I know Hartech can work wonders with the M96 but its still a 300-320 HP engine when a Turbo Mezger can be a lot more and bomb proof. I love what Hartech do and I may well be paying them a visit one day.
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very different cars to drive, I love the nothing-nothing-nothing-whooooooosh of a tuned turbo car, it's hysterical, although I found that I constantly chased more power when I ran one.

It's a world away from a responsive NA cars throttle response, and that's what I'm after at the moment.
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 703



PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod bolt failures can happen but are rare, most failures are rare, but when they do happen the internet lights up!!

I fitted forged Carrillo rods with ARP bolts, I don’t expect issues.

I also have the additional crankshaft bearing, and a light weight flywheel, which also takes load off the end of the crank.

That said when my 3.4 was stripped there was no untoward wear or damage anywhere and it had been regularly tracked.
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
Very different cars to drive, I love the nothing-nothing-nothing-whooooooosh of a tuned turbo car, it's hysterical, although I found that I constantly chased more power when I ran one.

It's a world away from a responsive NA cars throttle response, and that's what I'm after at the moment.


Me too I'm far more interested in a 991 GT3 RS or 993 Carrera RS than any other car, just need to rob the bank Floor
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
Rod bolt failures can happen but are rare, most failures are rare, but when they do happen the internet lights up!!

I fitted forged Carrillo rods with ARP bolts, I don’t expect issues.

I also have the additional crankshaft bearing, and a light weight flywheel, which also takes load off the end of the crank.

That said when my 3.4 was stripped there was no untoward wear or damage anywhere and it had been regularly tracked.


Yeah well i'm in the 1% of unlucky sods who had a dual row IMS bearing start to fail, so I'm not really in the game of taking risks with these engines now.
 
  
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