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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7455
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tourist wrote:
Anyone know whether the 996 3.6 Carrera (non-X51) has oil surge issues like the 3.4 in the cylinder head or was it fixed with an additional scavenge pump in the cylinder head?

Cheers.


It wasn't fixed with an extra scavenge pump, but isn't known to suffer the same. I don't know what changes were made.

MC
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
Tourist wrote:
Anyone know whether the 996 3.6 Carrera (non-X51) has oil surge issues like the 3.4 in the cylinder head or was it fixed with an additional scavenge pump in the cylinder head?

Cheers.


It wasn't fixed with an extra scavenge pump, but isn't known to suffer the same. I don't know what changes were made.

MC


From what I understand the M96 3.6L and M97 engines don't oil starve as easily as the early M96 engines do, but any of them can oil starve on R compound tyres driven by a talented individual.

Dry Sump lubrication is the cure, it's a real shame Porsche continue with this integrated Dry Sump nonsense, why they just didn't continue with the proper Dry Sump I will never know..
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are peoples opinions on the Accusump solution? If scavenging is an issue resulting in a loss of oil supply, then surely the Accusump would cover this momentary drop in pressure? Without having to add extra scavenge pumps.

Accusump and X51 Sump? Anyone running this combo?
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2472



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC the non Mezger GT3’s are all running integrated dry-sump, as are all 991 and 992 911’s.

It had issues in the M96 and M97, but you can also see a continuous evolution of the concept through the M9X series engines.

The external tank and associated plumbing represents complexity, weight and cost, and it has to be packaged- would be my guess as to why it was dropped by Porsche engineers.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7552
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any good apps for the iPhone which would show the fore/aft/lateral G force, which could be set up with alerts to beep if certain parameters are reached? Might be a good safeguard in the situations Dammit notes in his excellent post.
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
IIRC the non Mezger GT3’s are all running integrated dry-sump, as are all 991 and 992 911’s.

It had issues in the M96 and M97, but you can also see a continuous evolution of the concept through the M9X series engines.

The external tank and associated plumbing represents complexity, weight and cost, and it has to be packaged- would be my guess as to why it was dropped by Porsche engineers.


Correct, the Mezger M96/M97 engines and the 9A1 engines fitted into the GT3 and GT2 cars are true dry sump, so they do offer a proper motor sport engine, but it's a shame they're trying to peddle the Carrera as a sports car where it's probably less track ready than a MX5 in all fairness, I've never heard of anyone blowing a £150 MX5 motor on track and they're running slicks in some series. I know the flat six presents some interesting issues but these cars were never cheap and they're still not cheap even today they're still more than some new cars, I just think it's a poor showing from Porsche.

Despite this though, the chassis, brakes handling and general experience is worth it in the 996, just wish they'd not put a chocolate engine in the car.
 
  
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wasz
Paul Ricard


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 3051


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno about you guys but I never had the balls to properly thrash my 996 on track, and it certainly wasn't on slicks. I save that style for when I'm driving someone else's car!

As a result I doubt I ever got near those limits discussed.

I can't imagine it's really a massive problem for a car occasionally driven on track. Just have a bit of mechanical sympathy. If you are out every month they you will benefit from X51.

Oh and don't ever buy genuine parts (brake ducts) from Design 911, they are always cheaper from your OPC.
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 702



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.
 
  
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TV8
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Nov 2019
Posts: 106
Location: Bromley


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.


There are some fast corners at Castle Coombe but that is a lot of cornering force!

A friend of mine has just bought a v1 Boxster with the 3.4 engine and some sticky tyres for a track day in May at Castle Coombe. I have flagged this topic to him and would expect him to be along soon!
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7455
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TV8 wrote:
crash7 wrote:
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.


There are some fast corners at Castle Coombe but that is a lot of cornering force!

A friend of mine has just bought a v1 Boxster with the 3.4 engine and some sticky tyres for a track day in May at Castle Coombe. I have flagged this topic to him and would expect him to be along soon!


At least your friend can run the 'backwards' pump from Porsche, on the Boxster it needs to run on the opposite bank so is correct for this application.

MC
 
  
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 702



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MC Floor

Vbox data makes for interesting reading, at Coombe for instance when in the car I would say that the exit throught the Esses and Old Paddock bend feels high G, the data states around 1G.

The exit of Quarry and Tower dont feel particularly high but the data says 1.2 - 1.5.

Its the mid-speed corners, circa 60-70 mph that appear to pull most force.

While it was a 3.4 I had an ex Super-Cup racer pedal a few laps, cornering force is similar, he was however, unsurprisingly, braver on the brakes!!!
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
I ran a 3.4 with FVD sump for circa 20 trackdays with no oil starvation issues, this was on sticky Yoko AD08R tyres and cup car suspension.

VBox at Bedford showed max Corner G at 1.3G, Braking at 1.6G - Coombe was simlar with 1.5G & 1.6G.

PCGB 996 C2 racecars run baffled X51 sumps on slicks and also do not suffer issues, some cars, not all, also run accusumps, none-run the additional X51 scavange pump.

When I rebuilt to a 3.7, not due to failure, I added the X51 scavange for extra piece of mind, the only item available from Porsche runs backwards, ask me how I know, as such the pumps are now NLA.

Many track 996's with no modifications at all.


I'd imagine PCGB are running race car oil (that doesn't foam) in their race cars, and probably running 997 straight oil return pipes inside the sump rather than the 996 swirl pots, this solution with the X51 pan is known to be fine. But I'm trying to find a solution that will work with a quality road car oil, if at all possible?
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7455
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We could start a whole new thread on this. As I understand it the swirl pots on the 996 are there for a reason, on the 997 it still uses swirl pots but due to a redesign of the scavenge system they are not located in the sump.

Given how the x51 sump and scavenge pump work, I can imagine that under the vast majority of circumstances they will work very well to cure the issues of the standard sump and lack of second scavenge (which not only contributes to oil starvation but also to possible hydraulic fracture on the tappet chest), however it is conceivable that oil could still build up in the sump away from the pickup over a period of time. Whether this can happen enough to cause starvation in any real world environment is open to question, but it is something that Dammit and I have some ideas for if required.

The worst scenario for the standard system is braking from high speed followed by a high g-force long left hand bend. The scavenge pump helps in both circumstances, the sump helps to some extent, but with the continuous sideways g-force there is a limit to what can be done as some oil is being pumped back in to the side of the sump which is not accessible to the pickup, so even with perfect baffles and trap doors there is a wedge of inaccessible oil.

MC
 
  
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TV8
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Nov 2019
Posts: 106
Location: Bromley


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MisterCorn"]
TV8 wrote:


At least your friend can run the 'backwards' pump from Porsche, on the Boxster it needs to run on the opposite bank so is correct for this application.

MC


Thanks - one for him.

Backwards pump and Porsche seems an odd combination to me! More like the TVRs we are both used to Very Happy
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2472



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthFaker wrote:
Dammit wrote:
IIRC the non Mezger GT3’s are all running integrated dry-sump, as are all 991 and 992 911’s.

It had issues in the M96 and M97, but you can also see a continuous evolution of the concept through the M9X series engines.

The external tank and associated plumbing represents complexity, weight and cost, and it has to be packaged- would be my guess as to why it was dropped by Porsche engineers.


Correct, the Mezger M96/M97 engines and the 9A1 engines fitted into the GT3 and GT2 cars are true dry sump, so they do offer a proper motor sport engine, but it's a shame they're trying to peddle the Carrera as a sports car where it's probably less track ready than a MX5 in all fairness, I've never heard of anyone blowing a £150 MX5 motor on track and they're running slicks in some series. I know the flat six presents some interesting issues but these cars were never cheap and they're still not cheap even today they're still more than some new cars, I just think it's a poor showing from Porsche.

Despite this though, the chassis, brakes handling and general experience is worth it in the 996, just wish they'd not put a chocolate engine in the car.


9A1 is integrated dry sump, good article here: https://nnjr-pca.com/9a1-engine/
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression the 9A1 engined GT3 and GT2 were true dry sump? correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they had an external oil tank thus true dry sump?
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2472



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can’t find any reference to a different system for the GT cars.

That’s not to say there isn’t one- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it’d be a very significant reworking of the 9A1 and I would therefore expect to find some data.

If you find anything please add it to the thread- it’d be fascinating to know that they went that route.
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2472



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although with that said a sudden thought and subsequent search for “991 GT3 oil tank” does indeed bring back a Mezger-esque tank, which does point in that direction. More Googling to come.
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2472



PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More Googling done and I was 100% wrong, the GT3 adds an external tank to the system from the Carrera.
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 88
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
More Googling done and I was 100% wrong, the GT3 adds an external tank to the system from the Carrera.


I'm pretty sure the MA1.76 engine in the GT3 and GT2 has a lot of differences from the MA1.03 in the Carrera.

In the same way the M96.01/02/03/05 and M96.76 were very different indeed, but perhaps not to such an extent, ie the .76 is the designation for motorsports derived engines.
 
  
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