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Counter Of Beans
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 447
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SausageCreature wrote:

Anyway, a 911 is now ruled out Cheers
Mark


Just to move the discussion on a wee bit, would you agree that a Cayman or a Boxster is 90% as good as as a 911 for two thirds of the price? OK those numbers are a bit random, but I have a couple of mates who tell me that "Caysters" are far better value for money - assuming of course that you don't need the rear seats. Thoughts?
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Griffter
Nürburgring


Joined: 22 May 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having had a 996.1 and a 987.2 I think it’s best to think of the Boxster/cayman as a car in its own right, not a substitute 911. It’s a phenomenal mid-engined package which out performs most 911s that will have gone before it, but apart from the badge, engine and some trim, it’s not much like a 911 IMHO.

To the OP the most cost-effective way to mitigate the risks of a 996 is to buy a good 996.1 of the right spec. Read the IMS sticky thread at the top of this forum and go from there. On the 987.2 can you really get one for £15k? Only a high mileage 2.9 surely? (See “not a 911” comment above).
 
  
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DarthFaker
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you can really plan for this stuff, I went out to get a 996, I bought one with relatively low miles for a 20 year old car, superb history, perfect condition and aero kit (rarer than standard), I paid £20,990 from a well known specialist and a month down the line the IMS started to fail (caught in time).

I think the truth of the matter is, you need a budget for maintenance or repairs, and future proofing, with a £15k budget i'd be looking at 987.1 Boxsters and putting some money aside for rainy day.

I mean £15k will gladly get you into a 996, but if you've tossed the whole budget at the car and the engine lets go, that's an expensive paperweight.

If you want a car with a Hartech rebuilt engine you're probably looking over £22k in my opinion, if you can even find one..

Perhaps a RPM Technik CSR price would give you a better idea of what a thoroughly sorted and future proofed 996 costs, these are £44k!
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:


Just to move the discussion on a wee bit, would you agree that a Cayman or a Boxster is 90% as good as as a 911 for two thirds of the price? OK those numbers are a bit random, but I have a couple of mates who tell me that "Caysters" are far better value for money - assuming of course that you don't need the rear seats. Thoughts?


Absolutely I would agree with that. However, the driving characteristics are very different. When I first got my 2008 Boxster S 3.4 - the biggest engine they ever put in a Boxster S, I was able to drive it fast very quickly - predictable, easy to handle and confidence inducing.

When I first got my 911 I was not able to use the car's full power. I took it to Bruntingthorpe and had an hour-shake down on the track and then went on tour with a load of guys from 911uk.com Jackal did the film production and you can see the story here (for those that haven't already seen this amazing film) It does do high res - clcik the settings button to adjust res:

https://vimeo.com/55093995

Now, on that tour, following the 997 GT3, The 993 Carrera RS (work in progress), the Turbo 996 and the Turbo S 997.2 I learned very quickly how to position the car into all manner of adverse hairpins, tight turns, high speed cornering and what the capability of the car is. I particularly thank Jackal in his 993 for a lot of what I learned because I followed him closely and learned how to corner the car right on the edge of it's power and handling capability, mile after mile for thousands of miles - and you can see this in the video (and the follow ups for the other tours). I did three tours with this crowd and as we got to know each other better, we got more trust in one another and the driving skills for us as a group were continually increasing. Applecross in Scotland was a fantastic drive, close convoy, amazing bends and scenery.

The Boxster and Cayman are great, but the 911 is better. It also has better materials certainly in the cabin. The 911 will chose it's friends more carefully than a Cayman, and those that get to know a 911 properly and how to handle it on it's edge will *mostly* agree. That said, I know of only a few people that can really use "all a 911 can give", and do it safely. So many people own them and never figure out what to do with them, some of those folks then claim not to like the 911 - truth is, they never really knew it.
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffter wrote:
Having had a 996.1 and a 987.2 I think it’s best to think of the Boxster/cayman as a car in its own right, not a substitute 911. It’s a phenomenal mid-engined package which out performs most 911s that will have gone before it, but apart from the badge, engine and some trim, it’s not much like a 911 IMHO.

To the OP the most cost-effective way to mitigate the risks of a 996 is to buy a good 996.1 of the right spec. Read the IMS sticky thread at the top of this forum and go from there. On the 987.2 can you really get one for £15k? Only a high mileage 2.9 surely? (See “not a 911” comment above).


Hi Griffter, having had a couple (987.1, 997.1, Cayman S 981 as a loan whilst OPC rebuilt my 997 engine) - the only 911 for me now is either a 993 or a 997.1.5 turbo. We shall see which way it goes. But, to be honest, I have a burning desire to own a Mezger engined 911).

I appreciate the help, but the car we are discussing here is for a friend, and I know he would not entertain a M95/M96/M97 engined car that had not had the IMS and cylinder liner upgrade. He just wont take the risk. At all.

...and nor would I ever advise him to. Not because I do not like them myself, but because I know what he is like and I know it would be the wrong choice for him. He is my oldest mate, and we always consult each other on cars, and he knows exactly what I went through with my 997. He doesn't want that in his life. So it is the wrong car. If he goes the Porsche route, it will likely be a Cayman Gen2 - and that is the right Porsche decision for him, unless he is going to up his budget and get into a 997.2 - which I know he wont.

Anyway - said it already. 911 is now outruled.
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthFaker wrote:
I don't think you can really plan for this stuff, I went out to get a 996, I bought one with relatively low miles for a 20 year old car, superb history, perfect condition and aero kit (rarer than standard), I paid £20,990 from a well known specialist and a month down the line the IMS started to fail (caught in time).

I think the truth of the matter is, you need a budget for maintenance or repairs, and future proofing, with a £15k budget i'd be looking at 987.1 Boxsters and putting some money aside for rainy day.

I mean £15k will gladly get you into a 996, but if you've tossed the whole budget at the car and the engine lets go, that's an expensive paperweight.


Perhaps a RPM Technik CSR price would give you a better idea of what a thoroughly sorted and future proofed 996 costs, these are £44k!



Yes I know. Did you read my posts? Smile Question

RPM CSR - no comment on that.
 
  
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Counter Of Beans
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 447
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I share the view of your friend - I would not consider any 996 or 997.1 911 unless they'd had the full Hartech treatment, or of course GT and Turbo models with the Mezger engine. Some will say that that's much too risk averse or that I'm plain wrong. Fair enough. But your friend's viewpoint is not unique.
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
I share the view of your friend - I would not consider any 996 or 997.1 911 unless they'd had the full Hartech treatment, or of course GT and Turbo models with the Mezger engine. Some will say that that's much too risk averse or that I'm plain wrong. Fair enough. But your friend's viewpoint is not unique.


Not too risk averse, just a legendary engine, and having driven a few cars with those engines, I need that in my life at some point.

The 997 Gen 1.5 turbo is perfect for me, it has a 997.2 interior (inc PCM) and 997.2 front, 997.1 rear (My favourite) and the mezger engine...the 997.2 turbo comes with a the newer DFI engine (not mezger). It might be a better engine in the gen 2 turbo, but for me it has to be the mezger.
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 855



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SausageCreature wrote:
I could not disagree more. Smile It is a great car, but I do not think it is a better sports car than a 911 Smile Anyway, each to his own.


Your loss, mate.

I owned 3 911s before going to the Evora and it's way better.

But don't take my word for it, Read this and note the sub-heading:

https://www.evo.co.uk/lotus/evora/14270/lotus-evora

‘Suddenly the Cayman feels rather blunt’ evo 132

It beat them all, including the 997 GT3, Noble M600 and Lamborghini Murcielago SV.

https://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/244843/evo_car_of_the_year_2009.html

So yes, it is a better sports car. You just have to open your mind and try one to discover just how brilliant it is.
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 855



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and the Evora uses an indestructible Toyota V6, which sounds great.
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 469



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just a shame that the Evora is probably the worst looking Lotus in 30 years. I'd have an Exige over an Evora in a heartbeat. I'd put up with the more hardcore ride in order to drive around in such a focussed and good-looking car.

TBH, if I didn't have kids then I would certainly be driving a Lotus now, rather than the 911, the extra seats and frunk you can fit a pram into make the 911 into a family car.

Last edited by Martin996RSR on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 93
Location: 1999 Carrera 4 Aerokit


PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SausageCreature wrote:
Counter Of Beans wrote:


Just to move the discussion on a wee bit, would you agree that a Cayman or a Boxster is 90% as good as as a 911 for two thirds of the price? OK those numbers are a bit random, but I have a couple of mates who tell me that "Caysters" are far better value for money - assuming of course that you don't need the rear seats. Thoughts?


Absolutely I would agree with that. However, the driving characteristics are very different. When I first got my 2008 Boxster S 3.4 - the biggest engine they ever put in a Boxster S, I was able to drive it fast very quickly - predictable, easy to handle and confidence inducing.

When I first got my 911 I was not able to use the car's full power. I took it to Bruntingthorpe and had an hour-shake down on the track and then went on tour with a load of guys from 911uk.com Jackal did the film production and you can see the story here (for those that haven't already seen this amazing film) It does do high res - clcik the settings button to adjust res:

https://vimeo.com/55093995

Now, on that tour, following the 997 GT3, The 993 Carrera RS (work in progress), the Turbo 996 and the Turbo S 997.2 I learned very quickly how to position the car into all manner of adverse hairpins, tight turns, high speed cornering and what the capability of the car is. I particularly thank Jackal in his 993 for a lot of what I learned because I followed him closely and learned how to corner the car right on the edge of it's power and handling capability, mile after mile for thousands of miles - and you can see this in the video (and the follow ups for the other tours). I did three tours with this crowd and as we got to know each other better, we got more trust in one another and the driving skills for us as a group were continually increasing. Applecross in Scotland was a fantastic drive, close convoy, amazing bends and scenery.

The Boxster and Cayman are great, but the 911 is better. It also has better materials certainly in the cabin. The 911 will chose it's friends more carefully than a Cayman, and those that get to know a 911 properly and how to handle it on it's edge will *mostly* agree. That said, I know of only a few people that can really use "all a 911 can give", and do it safely. So many people own them and never figure out what to do with them, some of those folks then claim not to like the 911 - truth is, they never really knew it.


I don't think many drivers can get 100% out of an MX5 let alone a 911. People generally can't drive for toffee (but like to think they're Senna).

The 911 is probably one of the most unique driving experiences on the road today, and it takes a lot of practice and time and dedication to really extract 100% from any car, let alone one as dynamically bonkers as the 911.
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 469



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hear hear.
I like to drive close to the edge when conditions/traffic/etc permit, and having had a procession of cars, including MX5s, I can say that the 911 is by far the hardest to drift, and the hardest to get the most out of, particularly in terms of being able to pedal the car to its maximum potential.

However, its sensitivity to setup means that a poor understeery 911 can often be improved, and overcoming the ludicrous weight distribution through technique is part of the (rewarding) challenge of learning how to get the best from the car.
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 469



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also - a lot of 911s suffer from chronic power understeer, particularly at low speed. This negates the great rear end traction advantage that the weight distribution gives. Much of that understeer can be tuned out, but I think a lot of people drive around it rather than fix it, making the driver/car combo much less quick & satisfying than it could be.
 
  
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 855



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin996RSR wrote:
It's just a shame that the Evora is probably the worst looking Lotus in 30 years. I'd have an Exige over an Evora in a heartbeat. I'd put up with the more hardcore ride in order to drive around in such a focussed and good-looking car.

TBH, if I didn't have kids then I would certainly be driving a Lotus now, rather than the 911, the extra seats and frunk you can fit a pram into make the 911 into a family car.


Amazing how many people equate opinions with facts.
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 469



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought what I had written was so obviously opinion, given the subjectivity of aethetics, that couching it in '...in my opinion' was unnecessary.

Perhaps I should have done so for your benefit, EGTE.
 
  
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skinny_monkey
Nürburgring


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 489



PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's got a probably in there, it's not likely stated as a fact Grin
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 1018
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“DAM IT”! That’s exactly my reaction to some of the rubbish posted on here and I think it is both irresponsible, scurrilous and totally unfair to quote complete nonsense about our price structures as if it is fact and in the process completely mislead people.

There are statements above( that you cannot get an engine rebuild from us for under £12 or 13K minimum, pistons cost £500 each and a 3.4 has a high chance of scoring) – all absolutely wrong. Where do you people get your information from? What are you trying to achieve? Can you not read?

The prices are on our web site – please check for yourself (OK exchange rates sometimes vary and there may be some older prices knocking around various areas but they are pretty consistent and haven’t changed much - if at all) and show nothing like those claims and you can request a full detailed technical report about the main causes of failures from our Sharon on admin@hartech.org – if you really want to find out what actually causes these problems, which models it afflicts and what is best to do about it! (warning you will some need patience to flog through it as it is covering all aspects and refuting other claims – and is it a complex subject – but at least it corrects many errors generally posted on numerous forums).

I recommend anyone interested in our true costs of engine work to check our web site and if going further speak to our Grant for an up to date estimate on auto@hartech.org – as I did after reading all this. Waiting patiently to pull him away from a huge pile of detailed enquiries and job planning sheets - I asked him what is a typical lowest price “engine only” rebuild we have done in the past year? – after looking up a few invoices – the answer was “around £4K”, what is a typical lower priced full car job in the whole car then? “around £6K – and these will have reliable rebuilds we don’t do anything else”. He also added that a top level rebuild (full job on the whole car with no unusual add-ons) is usually around £8,500 to £9K.

Of course if someone wants to take the opportunity of also fitting a new dual mass flywheel and clutch, coolant pump, exhaust system etc – it all adds up but it is not fair to add that to our price structure for core engine re-manufacture and then claim that is our minimum typical price. These are additions that are often perfectly serviceable (may have already been recently replaced or are not necessary) and while an absolutely top rate “full English” rebuild (including many of these non-core engine replacements) can reach £13 or £14K - these are exceptions from discernible owners wanting to eliminate wear and avoid repetition that are being portrayed above as absolute minimums?

We even have numerous piston options from finding existing ones that can be re-used to re-coated, new from Porsche and manufactured exclusively for us (using the best top quality forged alloys as used in F1 applications) from an F1 manufacturer, but made to our own specifications for around £200 each (half the price of a new Porsche 3.6 piston for example and nothing like the £500 each quoted?). A set of 6 new aerospace alloy Nikasil plated closed deck cylinders fitted with re-coated pistons and new rings is £3200 (£533 each) and cylinders with New Capricorn (Hartech exclusive) pistons £3,700 (£617 each). (All quoted prices are net of VAT).

The web site also includes details of our oversized engines (that for a little extra greatly improve performance) and videos demonstrating what is involved in engine rebuilds. We carry out anything from cylinder block work for privateers and Porsche specialists (for home and abroad and obviously at even less cost) to full car rebuilds and remanufacture numerous proven add-ons (like Intermediate shafts with the later larger proven bearing for both early and later models (unobtainable elsewhere). (N.b. some Hartech exclusive modifications and products are not available for retail and only for our own rebuilds or customers).

If you do want to contact Grant - please don’t be offended if he does not have the time to respond to all speculative questions at length – there is lots of reliable information about pricing and options available on our web site and we are renown for being helpful but his time is in great demand from those actually considering or needing engine work.

These cars are in the classic car arena now and people need to adapt their approach to their ownership accordingly.

But - what I cannot get my head around - is why so many contributors cannot wait to post totally inaccurate and misleading information to discourage potential future customers from what are also very sensible and properly researched options explaining what a good prospect an older 996 can be with a Hartech rebuilt engine.


Baz
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T8
General
General


Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 16298
Location: Kent


PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you bazhart. I'm assuming that you were referring to this post.

Dammit wrote:


I think there are a lot of costs that haven't been included in that, I'd be counting on ~£12,000 as the minimum cost to get the car back from Hartech.

Lets say you bought a 996 for £8,000, unless you got incredibly lucky it's going to need new some of the following: suspension, radiators, air conditioning condensers, fan resistors, tyres, rust-repair, and doubtless some stuff I've forgotten.

12k rebuild plus 8k car would still leave you with 5-10k of stuff to fix, depending on how fussy you are.

If you buy one with a blown engine bear in mind that the failure mode might have thrown metal fragments through the whole engine, ruining bearing surfaces and blocking oil galleys - so rather than needing a rebuild you now need a whole new engine.


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Dammit
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies if I'm presenting bad data, looking at the website it's plainly £4,320 for a basic rebuild if you can get the car to Bolton.

And, if you were going to sell the car, I guess that's exactly what you'd do.

I've only discussed builds that include replacing parts, which obviously gets more expensive.
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