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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject: Future proofed 996 /how much & how long is a piece of st Reply with quote

I've a friend considering a Cayman, budget about £15k.
I shall advise him as best i can.

One thing I would like to add into the mix is a 996 that has had the replaced liners, IMS upgrade, ideally by Hartech or nine excellence.

Can anyone give me an idea of what these cars are selling for, ideally with a bit of detail.. ie. model, miles, age / anything else.

I'm very aware a FPSH vs a partial SH will affect prices, or one that has a pink polka dot interior might reduce the price a little bit Wink C2 vs C4s is going to give very different prices too.

So, any additional info would be helpful to understand if it is a very cheap example and why. Doesn't have to be an exact science - just trying to get an idea if a future proofed 996 is in the same price bracket. I think he would prefer a 911 to be honest.

Thanks
 
  
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nickyg63
Trainee


Joined: 25 Aug 2019
Posts: 60



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both are great cars, but both will need some sort of preventative work. The caymans are in the 996.2 era for bore score, the 3.4's are more prone. a 911 is a 911 and thats where a lot of Porsche owners want to be, porsche is a very aspirational brand. Theres always a model somebody wants to upgrade to!

you can buy a variant of both cars in that budget, i would get out and drive with and see what you like. Buy on condition not spec limiting.

just my 2 pence worth! I started with a boxster and moved onto a 911, loved the boxster but knew i would always end up at a 911
 
  
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ragpicker
Reims


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 4060
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubt he'd get into a Harlech rebuilt 996 for £15k.

As said, an early 3.4 has much less chance of scoring than a Cayman, but the Cayman automatically has the upgraded IMS bearing. However chances are if a 996.1 has gone this far in its life the IMS will be fine.

Both cracking cars though. Thumb
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nicky, I followed your path, 987.1 when it was a new thing, and just six months later moved to a 997 which I kept for nearly 8 years and only sold it via word of mouth (It was a remarkable example and is now even better under the new owner)/ I sold it simply due to not using it any more. I might well come back to the brand some day, but it will likely be for a gen 1.5 997 Turbo, and probably a cab because they are about as ostentatious as a 997 can get and I think I need that. That is my story...so, back to my friend...

.. for my friend. He is likely to opt for a DFI 987 Cayman (gen 2), they are around at the price point he is looking at. I know a very small few 9x7.2 engines have scored, but they do seem more resilient and the IMS should not be an issue...so all is good on the Cayman front. No advice needed.

Now, he has not mentioned a 996 at all. He is only talking about Caymans, and asking me about the issues that affect the 911s and whether they affect the cayman. Yes, of course they do, unless you go to the DFI gen 2. Im not aware of these DFI needing any preventative measures. So again...all good/no advice needed.

Anyway what i am trying to find out is here....I know he would also consider a nice 996, but ONLY if it has had the work done to address the potential issues and it is in his price bracket.

My questions about the 996 are specifically a car that has already been future proofed and had the work done....I.e. with the new cylinder liners and an IMS upgrade so that he has peace of mind - and my questions are - what would he likely be able to get for his budget that meets this two requirements which I know will be top of his list if he is going to get into a 996. I have mentioned IMS and liners (aka bore scoring), so with that in mind what other preventative work are you suggesting?

Cheers
M
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Ragpicker, I know he won't gamble on either issue. So, yes a 3.4 is going to have the smallest of the IMS bearings, (I think there were three changes to them over the life of the 996/997, maybe two, not entirely sure)....and the 3.4 still has a high chance of scoring. So here we have a option of choosing which way to die - he wont do it - he will just go for a Cayman.

But probably like me, after a few months will be hankering for the 911.

So, rather than him do what i did (I.e. buy a 987 and then change it almost immediately) ....if he can have an option for a 911 that is not going to have a risk of lunching on it's cylinders or IMS then I think I should make him aware of it and if the car is future proofed he will consider it and no doubt be happy about it.

Of course, he knows that there are many other expenses that he will encounter, and he will be ok with this. He also knows that I spent £44,000 approx maintaining my 997 over the 8 years, but he will be ratted if he buys a 911 and suffers the catastrophic engine failures and if he can get one that is all future proofed in his budget, I want to let him know.


Cheers - so, so far, one vote for "not for £15k) - cheers Ragpicker.
M

Last edited by SausageCreature on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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nickyg63
Trainee


Joined: 25 Aug 2019
Posts: 60



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SausageCreature wrote:
Hi Nicky, I followed your path, 987.1 when it was a new thing, and just six months later moved to a 997 which I kept for nearly 8 years and only sold it via word of mouth (It was a remarkable example and is now even better under the new owner)/ I sold it simply due to not using it any more. I might well come back to the brand some day, but it will likely be for a gen 1.5 997 Turbo, and probably a cab because they are about as ostentatious as a 997 can get and I think I need that. That is my story...so, back to my friend...

.. for my friend. He is likely to opt for a DFI 987 Cayman (gen 2), they are around at the price point he is looking at. I know a very small few 9x7.2 engines have scored, but they do seem more resilient and the IMS should not be an issue...so all is good on the Cayman front. No advice needed.

Now, he has not mentioned a 996 at all. He is only talking about Caymans, and asking me about the issues that affect the 911s and whether they affect the cayman. Yes, of course they do, unless you go to the DFI gen 2. Im not aware of these DFI needing any preventative measures. So again...all good/no advice needed.

Anyway what i am trying to find out is here....I know he would also consider a nice 996, but ONLY if it has had the work done to address the potential issues and it is in his price bracket.

My questions about the 996 are specifically a car that has already been future proofed and had the work done....I.e. with the new cylinder liners and an IMS upgrade so that he has peace of mind - and my questions are - what would he likely be able to get for his budget that meets this two requirements which I know will be top of his list if he is going to get into a 996. I have mentioned IMS and liners (aka bore scoring), so with that in mind what other preventative work are you suggesting?

Cheers
M


I am working my way down the typical issue associated with the 996, you have mentioned the biggies! The other is the ovality of the cylinders on high mile cars, but then the others are wear and tear.

Clutch
RMS
AOS
plugs & coils
Condensers
Water hoses
Brake lines
suspension arms
shocks
springs
engine mounts
exhaust parts are getting on for 20yrs and will possible need sorting, this may include the headers and bolts snapping

I am working my way through this list!! But apart from the big problems most of these are age related! Once sorted should last another 20yrs

Good luck
 
  
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nickyg63
Trainee


Joined: 25 Aug 2019
Posts: 60



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think for his budget a Hartech or similar rebuilt car could be a tough find?

Not impossible but unlikely
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nicky,
not worried about wear and tear stuff. I know what it takes to run a 911 and a 987, so thanks but honestly no need for it. My post is very specific -how much to buy a future proofed 996?
Cheers
Mark

Votes - two votes for "not likely to be for £15.000"

I am very surprised. After seeing some "bottom of the pile" 996s at about £8k. So the cost of buying one, sending it to Hartech and getting it done should be less than £15k.
Personally I would never advise him to buy the cheapest one available. But having just checked Hartechs price list there is wiggle room. Potentially it could be done even more cheaply with one that has already failed. I know there are a lot of caveats when doing a rebuild (unexpected costs).

Option d) 6 x New Cylinders: £2500 + VAT
Hartech closed deck aluminium alloy cylinders with Nikiski plating fitted to a stripped engine.

New Latest Design Porsche Intermediate Shaft: From £800 + VAT

New Intermediate Shaft Bearing & Stronger Spindle: £150 + VAT
Fitted to intermediate shaft from stripped engine.


All in for about £13,000k with a new clutch. A couple of £k back pocket for other issues.

So, £15k for one already sorted shouldn't be too far off the mark....
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are a lot of costs that haven't been included in that, I'd be counting on ~£12,000 as the minimum cost to get the car back from Hartech.

Lets say you bought a 996 for £8,000, unless you got incredibly lucky it's going to need new some of the following: suspension, radiators, air conditioning condensers, fan resistors, tyres, rust-repair, and doubtless some stuff I've forgotten.

12k rebuild plus 8k car would still leave you with 5-10k of stuff to fix, depending on how fussy you are.

If you buy one with a blown engine bear in mind that the failure mode might have thrown metal fragments through the whole engine, ruining bearing surfaces and blocking oil galleys - so rather than needing a rebuild you now need a whole new engine.
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 855



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most £8K 996s have probably a lot more issues than just high mileages or bore-score, though.

For example, worn-out suspension, failed AC/Condensers, worn interiors, all of which happen over a lot of careless use.

If he found a high-mileage but great-condition 996 for about £10K, he could send it to Hartech as you say.

But realistically a 996 that has had everything done has to be worth much closer to £20K than £15K.
 
  
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Counter Of Beans
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 455
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Brer Sausage, let me offer my thoughts from a buyer's perspective. If I was in this market I'd be expecting a decent (not perfect but not a neglected heap either) 996 to be in the £12k to £18k range, perhaps a bit more for a C4S. Let's say £14k. A Full English at Hartech is, what, £13k?, so as a buyer I might think the Hartech work to be worth half that in my hands (so £6k to £7k).

So if someone offered me a 996 with the full Hartech treatment - backed up with invoices as proof - I would push the budget to £20k. Other opinions are available, but that's mine.

Thing is, can you find one? Or is it better to buy the cheapest (reasonable) 996 you can and just send it to Hartech for them to sort?
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2485



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think some of it comes down to what sort of person the buyer/owner is - do they want a car that is done (i.e. passes a PPI with few to no alerts), or do they want something that they can do themselves, send to Hartech, send to Centre Gravity etc etc.
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right Dammit, the webpage I quoted from Hartech was their "Engine rebuilds page" - I misunderstood and the prices must be for parts alone - which would make a lot more sense. I.e. Approx £500 per piston - yes. My mistake. Smile

OK, thanks everyone. I have a pretty good idea now. He was thinking of a caterham, elise or a few others. When he asked me about Caymans...it just got me thinking about his other Porsche options. Cayman it is then, I'll sell him the virtues of them and not mention a 911. Thumb
 
  
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wasz
Paul Ricard


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 3072


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cayman is the better "sports car" but nothing beats taking your kids along in a 996
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EGTE
Imola


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 855



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He should look at Evoras, too.

Way more fun than a Cayman and way more reliable than people think.

Tremendous sports cars.
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could not disagree more. Smile It is a great car, but I do not think it is a better sports car than a 911 Smile Anyway, each to his own.
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He lives near Lotus. I think we both thought the Evora was pricey. Will take a look. Thanks..

(Previous comment was a disagreement on Cayman vs 911 Smile )
 
  
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He lives near Lotus. I think we both thought the Evora was pricey. Will take a look. Thanks..

(Previous comment was a disagreement on Cayman vs 911 Smile )
 
  
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Jackzi
Silverstone


Joined: 30 Aug 2015
Posts: 139
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nickyg63 wrote:
SausageCreature wrote:
Hi Nicky, I followed your path, 987.1 when it was a new thing, and just six months later moved to a 997 which I kept for nearly 8 years and only sold it via word of mouth (It was a remarkable example and is now even better under the new owner)/ I sold it simply due to not using it any more. I might well come back to the brand some day, but it will likely be for a gen 1.5 997 Turbo, and probably a cab because they are about as ostentatious as a 997 can get and I think I need that. That is my story...so, back to my friend...

.. for my friend. He is likely to opt for a DFI 987 Cayman (gen 2), they are around at the price point he is looking at. I know a very small few 9x7.2 engines have scored, but they do seem more resilient and the IMS should not be an issue...so all is good on the Cayman front. No advice needed.

Now, he has not mentioned a 996 at all. He is only talking about Caymans, and asking me about the issues that affect the 911s and whether they affect the cayman. Yes, of course they do, unless you go to the DFI gen 2. Im not aware of these DFI needing any preventative measures. So again...all good/no advice needed.

Anyway what i am trying to find out is here....I know he would also consider a nice 996, but ONLY if it has had the work done to address the potential issues and it is in his price bracket.

My questions about the 996 are specifically a car that has already been future proofed and had the work done....I.e. with the new cylinder liners and an IMS upgrade so that he has peace of mind - and my questions are - what would he likely be able to get for his budget that meets this two requirements which I know will be top of his list if he is going to get into a 996. I have mentioned IMS and liners (aka bore scoring), so with that in mind what other preventative work are you suggesting?

Cheers
M


I am working my way down the typical issue associated with the 996, you have mentioned the biggies! The other is the ovality of the cylinders on high mile cars, but then the others are wear and tear.

Clutch
RMS
AOS
plugs & coils
Condensers
Water hoses
Brake lines
suspension arms
shocks
springs
engine mounts
exhaust parts are getting on for 20yrs and will possible need sorting, this may include the headers and bolts snapping

I am working my way through this list!! But apart from the big problems most of these are age related! Once sorted should last another 20yrs

Good luck


Agree with this. The engine is just one element of the entire package that needs to be/needs to have been maintained.

In my search I came across a 996 4S with a rebuild that still would have needed another 8-10k spent on it.

I would add addressing corrosion on structural bodywork to that list. Things like sills, jacking points, etc. can start to rust and once the rots gets hold it's increasingly expensive to get right. So I'd add rust management/proofing as a must for future proofing.

Also, just because an ad says 'engine rebuilt' doesn't necessarily mean everything has been done. I came across a few cars where just half the liners were replaced (I know that one bank is more prone, but you'd kind of think that once you're in there...). In other cases I also saw very selective rebuilds that were a far cry from the 'full fat' all six cylinder and liner 12k job. Some shops will do one cylinder and a few other bits for a little over a grand.
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SausageCreature
Barcelona


Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1495



PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SausageCreature wrote:

not worried about wear and tear stuff. I know what it takes to run a 911 and a 987, so thanks but honestly no need for it.


Thanks - to say it again, really no need for this kind of info. I owned my 911 for 8 years.

Anyway, a 911 is now ruled out Cheers
Mark
 
  
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