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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15643
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
I suspect that my experience with my trusty old 996.2 GT3 is fairly unique:

I've done 157K miles in the car since I bought it 12 years ago with 20K on it. It's still on it's original gearbox. Other than a year when it was running a lower Cup final drive (I didn't get on with it), the gearing has remained standard while it's been through its 4 engine size changes which means that I've been able to do comparisons while just changing engine size with the rest of the platform remaining broadly the same.

It's variously been a 3.6, 3.9, 3.8 and now a 4.0. It's done probably around 50K track miles (238 trackdays including around 3,500 laps at Spa and > 800 at the 'ring). In other words, it's been well-used and has "had a life". It ran on slicks for 3 years and it most certainly got them up to race temperature (around 90-100 degress centigrade), contrary to what Baz asserts.

The engine is incredibly tough - I finally retired the original crank (it was still within spec) only a few ,000 miles ago when an RSR crank went in (4mm longer stroke) to take it out to 4.0 Conrods need changing because titanium will crack in the end. I'm on my 3rd set of rods now, but went to Carrilo steel rods last time for reasons of cost & longevity.

Some observations about capacitity increases:

The sweetspot in terms of power & driveability on the standard stroke (76.4mm) was as a 3.8 (102mm bore). The engine just breathes perfectly & unsurprisingly, this is what the 997.2 GT3 has. Since I'm lucky enough to also have one of these, it's served as a good benchmark.

The difference that adding a mere 4mm of stroke to the 3.8 engine is quite marked since it's now got a 12.6:1 compression ratio. It's just got so much more torque everywhere. I can trickle along in 6th at tickover and it will pull all the way to the redline without a hiccup. I'm not chasing BHP since torque is what will drag you out of corners. The car feels like it's got a low pressure turbo or supercharger on it but can still rev out like a N/A engine. Weirdly, on the road the 4.0 is returning 29mpg on a run to the 'ring (so doing about 85mph all the way). This is 5mpg better that it was as a standard car all those years ago. On track it's always been around 9 to 11mpg depending on track & enthusiasm.

Rebuilding a Mezger is a costly exercise and doing it right (a new oil pump is advised after 1500 hours and costs about £1K) will not get you much change from £18K using Porsche parts and a meticulous & skilled engine builder. Going to a 4.0 will add an extra 50% and that's without optioning the Porsche titanium rods which are over £1K each last time I looked.


loved reading that , great post Grin Thumb
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

The second rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

ad infinitum

Floor

My observation is that affairs & the inevitable divorce is costlier. Pick your poison...
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2412



PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve just taken the Misses skiing for two weeks (which cost half the purchase price of my 996), so hopefully I’m in the good books for now.
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 315



PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
I’ve just taken the Misses skiing for two weeks (which cost half the purchase price of my 996), so hopefully I’m in the good books for now.


Another total waste of money. Very Happy
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8529
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
The first rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

The second rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

ad infinitum

Floor
.


The trouble is when the missus takes a wild stab in the dark at what you have spent on the car over the years and you have to deny it being anywhere near that figure but knowing she was right in the ball park with it.
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coullstar
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1659
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g911omr wrote:
Dammit wrote:
I’ve just taken the Misses skiing for two weeks (which cost half the purchase price of my 996), so hopefully I’m in the good books for now.


Another total waste of money. Very Happy


Money well spent IMO. Thumb
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15643
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
The first rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

The second rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

ad infinitum

Floor
.


The trouble is when the missus takes a wild stab in the dark at what you have spent on the car over the years and you have to deny it being anywhere near that figure but knowing she was right in the ball park with it.


Its worse when the other half suggests the Porsche really isn't big enough for the girls in the back now and not practical and suggested you look at a "nice ford kuga" Surprised as an alternative . thats when you know they just dont get it Grin but I say to you all "stay strong they won't grind us down" Grin Grin
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nickyg63
Trainee


Joined: 25 Aug 2019
Posts: 55



PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW! this thread has sparked some great debates, my original thoughts were if the m96 gained 20% more torque and 10-15% more bhp that places it closer to the GT3.

Like i said about i would sooner have a GT3 if i had bought one at the right time. £50k for one now, for me is unobtainable. I'm not out to build a carrera to beat a GT3, but it was a thought about how close the two cars would be??

I suspect that you spend wisely on a £50k GT3 the investment will be a good one, I do believe though that the prices of the 996's are going up. Slower but heading up! Due to the numbers of cars built i cant see these ever getting to the 964 level of prices.

I think the 996 has aged well and you can see the classic 911 shape in it, the size is good. relatively small still compared to its younger siblings. It has never had a automatic gearing that betters the manual (unlike the 997). It can still be an everyday car and lots of choice out there.

If i need to rebuild my engine, i will talk to Hartech about a 3.9 conversion because in my logic you take the blow of a costly rebuild but can improve the performance for a minimal amount more.

I love my 996, i think its going to be a keeper. I have a few road trips planned in this car, i would like to have a high mileage example thats been on some adventures. Its going to be a car that my wife and myself enjoy, i bought a boxster thinking the same and ended upgrading to the 911!

I appreciate all Porsches and i think true fans do, but the 911 is the purest Porsche to be a custodian of. i think i read a fact that a high percentage of all porsche's are still on the road today?

Thanks for your great comments and debate. I also would love to see a 3.9 head to head with a GT3!!
 
  
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kingston
Suzuka


Joined: 09 Jun 2010
Posts: 1003



PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it was cmoose on pistonheads has done some back to back comparison drives and written about them.

So have a search on there as he's written about a few

Someone mentioned about maintaining a GT3 on a yearly basis over 10 years, i think ive had mine now for 10/11 and its roughly £600 a year based on JZM doing the service and recommending what they find 'wrong'

Some will spend more, some less. Consumables (tyres, suspension refresh etc.) will be the same between the Carreras and GT3
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
infrasilver wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
The first rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

The second rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

ad infinitum

Floor
.


The trouble is when the missus takes a wild stab in the dark at what you have spent on the car over the years and you have to deny it being anywhere near that figure but knowing she was right in the ball park with it.


Its worse when the other half suggests the Porsche really isn't big enough for the girls in the back now and not practical and suggested you look at a "nice ford kuga" Surprised as an alternative . thats when you know they just dont get it Grin but I say to you all "stay strong they won't grind us down" Grin Grin


Dont know time for a mistress?
 
  
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UncleP
Silverstone


Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 140



PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
The first rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

The second rule of modding is never add up what you've spent

ad infinitum

Floor
.


The trouble is when the missus takes a wild stab in the dark at what you have spent on the car over the years and you have to deny it being anywhere near that figure but knowing she was right in the ball park with it.


My wife always guesses that i've spent way more than I actually have so that allows me to honestly reply "it's nowhere near that amount". What she doesn't realise is that this then gives me a figure to aim for.
 
  
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UncleP
Silverstone


Joined: 27 Feb 2019
Posts: 140



PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't Lee Sibley's recent video with the RPM Technik 996.2 CSR Evo put some favour in the modified Carrera corner on this? Granted, it is only 1 persons opinion. However, that's a car with no increase in capacity or power output yet he was quite certain he preferred it to a GT3. I wonder if it would be enhanced further by having a Hartech 3.9 engine?

For me, more power doesn't always add to the experience. The dealer gave me a loan of a TT for a month while they sorted the myriad of issues my C4 had following the PPI. I won't deny it was exciting and scaring passengers was a good laugh but it had such a different character to a carrera and seemed to just not be as fun at sensible speeds. I still don't really know why. Maybe because you know that extra power is there or maybe because working an engine harder for the same speed adds more than I thought to the experience.
 
  
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Glasgow 911SC
Trainee


Joined: 09 Jun 2002
Posts: 51
Location: Glasgow


PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UncleP wrote:
Doesn't Lee Sibley's recent video with the RPM Technik 996.2 CSR Evo put some favour in the modified Carrera corner on this? Granted, it is only 1 persons opinion. However, that's a car with no increase in capacity or power output yet he was quite certain he preferred it to a GT3. I wonder if it would be enhanced further by having a Hartech 3.9 engine?


I'd suggest that says neither should be an option, rather than in favour of one or another.
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UncleP wrote:
Doesn't Lee Sibley's recent video with the RPM Technik 996.2 CSR Evo put some favour in the modified Carrera corner on this? Granted, it is only 1 persons opinion. However, that's a car with no increase in capacity or power output yet he was quite certain he preferred it to a GT3. I wonder if it would be enhanced further by having a Hartech 3.9 engine?


There's a number of factors / agendas at play in that video:

1) Lee owns a 996 C2 - he's coming at the test with that as his experience benchmark and that colours his thinking imo. You have to ask yourself what you want from the car; a GT3 isn't going to be a daily for 99.9% of people whereas a modded C2 could easily be. A GT3 isn't for everyone...

2) Magazines rely on cooperative traders to source their cars for features. It's a symbiotic relationship & they don't bite the hand that feeds & pays for advertising. The numbers on that particular car simply don't stack up with the whole conversion including donor approaching £80K iirc and they haven't touched the engine internals?? It's more a demonstration of all their bolt-ons in one car. To try to suggest that spending more on that car than a sorted GT3 is a good idea doesn't really stand up to any serious scrutiny. The bath you'd take on resale alone would be enough reason not to do it.

3) Nobody who has spent a decent amount of time in a C2 & GT3 could say they were remotely comparable when you start to push on, never mind on track where the GT3 really shines. Yes, bolting on a load of bits to a C2 can change the focus of the car to replicate the GT3 feel and it can be a fun thing to create a car that is exactly how you want it to be but the biggest factor in the GT3 experience is always going to be the engine and that can't really be replicated. As Stuart can attest, spending a considerable amount on a C2 will only get you so far, the step up to the GT3 isn't one you regret & think "I wish I'd kept the C2".

The elephant in the room is that you never get your money back on modified cars & often they are considerably more difficult to shift than standard ones. One thing I've learned in over 40 years of modifying is that if you start with the best model platform you can afford, in the long run you will spend less since the manufacturer will have already done a decent job for you. Making a silk purse from a sow's ear ultimately costs as much if not more and gives a less coherent end result IMHO.
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7389
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Nick says, you can change the suspension on the C2 to make it like a GT3, identical to it if you wanted, but that the one thing you can't replicate is the engine. I asked the following earlier but nobody has really replied.....

What are the characteristics of the GT3 engine which make it so different (better) to drive?

I am not thinking of dry sump, history, development path. I'm thinking of what you can tell as a driver. So the sort of thing which would spring to mind are...

Throttle response
How quickly the engine revs up (weight of internals)
Overall power
Shape of power curve (torque delivery and wilingness to rev)
Sound
Clutch feel and operation
Gear ratios
Gearbox shift feel

Anybody who has extensive experience of both feel able to comment?

MC
 
  
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Poker2009
Österreich


Joined: 09 Sep 2009
Posts: 956
Location: London


PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Ohlins on my 997 C2S recently fitted - with complete rebuild of arms etc, and ride heights changed to 105mm front, 133 rear (GT3 is 108/133) - and having test driven a 991.2 GT3 on a track, back-to-back with my own car, the handling is not far off, although GT3 still felt better.

The gear changes on the GT3 cannot be matched, even though mine is 6-speed also with short shift, the GT3 felt like a rifle.

GT3 sounds awesome - cannot be matched.

The GT3 engine revs more freely, feels pokey. There is so much power available. Even upto 5k revs it revs more freely. But it is still close to my 997. After 5k revs, the engine cannot be matched, it just has another level of power.

The problem I have, on the road, my 997 is more or less the limit at 5k revs, before you have to change gear - there just isn't enough road. So when would you actually drive the GT3 in higher revs?

It kind of felt the GT3 on the road, you wouldn't even get out of 2nd gear. On my 997 I can use 3rd,4th gear.

If Hartech were to produce a 4.0L, where the engine felt pokey and free-er revving, with more power sub 5k, that would be a great compromise.

GT3 991.2 £130k-£170k (for Touring pack - I could not live with that spoiler!) vs 997 £25k (with Ohlins) + £15k Hartech engine would make a lot of sense to me.
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 1000
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting that after 40 years of trying to explain the influence of torque and not bhp for drivability and acceleration, the first 16 valve 1.9 Peugeot and VW GT2's and the 994 S with more bhp at higher revs were found to perform no better than the 8 valve versions with lower peak bhp, then low pressure turbo diesels were found to accelerate very quickly and be great as a general all round driver and finally the introduction of electric cars with low peak bhp but huge torque low down are performing very well (and small domestic versions in the recent TV test were raced round Birmingham City centre track faster than pure sports cars they were up against).

I have explained a lot more about this in our report on bigger engines (available from Sharon @admin@hartech.org) because what they do is BOTH increase mid range torque (by about twice the capacity increase) and peak bhp (by about the capacity increase) and create a car much easier to drive as well as faster.

Of course if what you want is basically a race car on the road, a GT3 is a great car but expensive and as most road time is spent unable to exploit that performance (as rightly pointed out by the last contributor) to have something easier to drive, faster to accelerate and without any need to drop gears and rev the nuts off it - can be a welcome compromise.

For any seriously interested in a conversion we have several different models available for private test by arrangement - just contact me - but I can only spare the time to discuss in detail with those who have already read that report (so I don't have to waste valuable time going over the very same things again and again - sorry).

Baz Hartech Automotive baz@hartech.org
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searider
Silverstone


Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 143
Location: Southampton


PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
I agree with the guys who enjoy modding and seeing what does or doesn't work its part of the fun of ownership and it becomes your interest/hobby and heres my man maths and I am going to use a Dammit type theory as the example as he's spent a lot on his Carrera.

1/you buy a Carrera 15k intend to own it for 10 years plus you then spend 40k enjoying modding it as this is your interest total outlay 55k future value 22k loss 33k

2/ you buy a Carrera 15k spend nothing on it and decide to play golf as your interest/hobby over 10 years at 3k pa aprox
total outlay 45k future value 10k loss 35k

I cant make the owning a GT3 comparison as I genuinely dont know what costs over 10 years would be to own one and maintain it well.

I am only making this example to highlight that if modding you car is your hobby then that has a value as you would spend money on any other hobby and its not about making money but its about the fun of seeing what things do.

Thumb


This!
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911munKy
Montreal


Joined: 26 Nov 2014
Posts: 572



PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996 & GT3 comparison:

https://youtu.be/vUKj0TGOyRQ
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Osh
Paul Ricard


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 3018
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 wrote:
Jesus Neil, you’ve got over £60k in a 996 cabriolet? Surprised

If it sold for £22k-£25k you’d be £40k down. Wowzers. I thought I’d wasted a bit losing £10k on my C2.



I know we all have our own personal journeys on our Pork; some just want to drive a porker for a short time - an itch to scratch, while others have a long term love affair with our cars. I loved reading what Neil's done to his car and, while I wont have stuck £60k in to my C4S in the same way that he's done, I can see it getting that way over time.

In the next few years mine will need a rebuild - possibly a supercharger, a new exhaust and down pipes, it will need the canvass replacing on the roof, I love the headlights thread that's going right now - they'll get upgraded, the interior will have money spent on it, i'm planning to upgrade the ICE and dashcam, the suspension will be kept fresh and then it will need a full respray. Add a personal plate next year, too, and i'm well through £50k when i add the original cost of the car (possibly even £60k).

But, when that's all done, while she'll still be an almost 20yr old car, she'll be as good as new and a million times better than a new Mondeo, and I genuinely cannot see circumstances where i'll want to sell her...

Maybe i'm on my own here but I'd prefer my C4S, with a great engine and suspension, a rag top and radio PSE than a GT3. Grin


Osh
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