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DAVIDGT996
Trainee


Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 77
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:19 pm    Post subject: 996- 3.8 upgraded 600-650 BHP? Reply with quote

What do we think of this one for sale on ebay?

-EAAOSwQZFd39IT" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-911-Twin-Turbo-996-Carrera-3-8-GT-Street-RS-Replica-600-BHP-4WD/312918109633?hash=item48db5f6dc1:gSurprised-EAAOSwQZFd39IT
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2412



PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 wrote:


It sounds like I’m bashing C2s because I now own a GT3. Not the case at all, as I rate the Carrera very highly and for the money it’s an unbeatable package.
I’m just saying to people beware of your budget before embarking on a mission to create a GT3 beater because it may cost as much or more and the car won’t be a GT3 beater.



I've easily spent more than it would have cost to buy a GT3 on my project, and the associated engine development. Quite tricky to buy a 996.1 GT3 cabriolet though. Will it be a GT3 beater? Who knows, but a large part of the fun is in finding out, for me at least. I really enjoy the whole research and development side of things, it's fascinating and makes a change from what I get paid to do whilst still being deeply involving.

I simply don't believe that the 996.1 Mezger was the absolute apogee of engine design, and that nothing else has come close or could come close to it, especially given 21 years of progress since then. Whether or not the M96 can be made to perform is of course the question - but if we don't ask said question we will never know the answer.

Marky911 wrote:


Neil, I get the feeling we aren’t going to agree on this one. Grin

“I acknowledge that no one has done this yet, but then no one has actually tried yet, either.

Every single race team start with the fastest available base - that's the logical thing to do, and it's the Mezger.”

Have you not stopped to question why that is though Neil?
Porsche had the Carrera motor all done and in production producing 300bhp. Why would they not just develop it further for motorsport use. After all a mk1 GT3 only produces 360bhp (355 in a lot of cases as Mk1s usually produce a bit less than quoted, Mk2s a bit more, but anyway.. ).
Instead Porsche chose to develop a completely new engine altogether.



This isn't really true.

Porsche put a lot of effort into the initial X51, making changes that you'd simply not do if it was a pure marketing "performance pack" exercise with for e.g. the oiling modifications.

However, it is of course true that the M96 has "engineered to cost" issues that the Mezger doesn't, being based on the "engineering trumps accounts" era of the 964 - indeed the early GT3 crankcases had a 964 part number stamped in them. Racing teams are, in some ways, deeply conservative, and in this case they stuck with what they knew - a water-cooled engine that was either the same as, or very similar too, the air-cooled engine that they'd campaigned for years.

The 996.1 Mezger engine is a better engine than the X51 M96, no doubt- and Porsche chose the better engine for the Porsche Cup. I'm not arguing that.

The project I'm engaged upon is a "what if", what if they developed the X51 rather than dragging the old-stager out of the 964 and water-cooled it.

Marky911 wrote:


I admire your steely determination to have a car built to your own spec but if you think you are going to create a car that Porsche forgot to, or were incapable of, I think you’ll end up disappointed. But go for it if that’s what you enjoy doing and I genuinely don’t mean that sarcastically. Thumb


“The mythology that surrounds the GT3 is in reality a story about an engine, I submit.”

That is playing things down somewhat but let’s pretend you’re right, what a great “results proven” story it is though eh. Very Happy
I’m sold on it. So too are most people who get to drive them, including every motoring journo of that era.
“Those GT3s are crap! What we really need is a C4 with the front driveshafts ripped out and a bigger engine that won’t have that GT3 fizz”.....

Said no one, ever. Grin



And it's not what I'm saying, either.

I'm saying that a car that is either at parity with, or better than, a 996.1 GT3 in terms of suspension and brakes, fitted with an M96 that has a development of the X51 concept that sees 8,000+ rpm breathing through throttle bodies, and making it's maximum power above 7,500 is a car that you would logically compare to said 996.1 GT3. Better? Who knows. Similar? Absolutely.

Marky911 wrote:


Hi Martin, that list you’ve written re the CSL can be applied to a GT3 and some. Although no it doesn’t have the weight loss.

Here are a few more items -

30mm lowered ride height
modified cast iron wheel carriers
larger 80mm wheel bearings
unibal spherical joints
rear spherical joints
adjustable arbs front and rear
monobloc calipers
reduced brake vacuum servo for increased feel
modified shift mechanism with 20% shorter travel
240mm clutch + flywheel
different engine, box, dampers, springs, bodywork, interior, C4 derived shell



^Bolt-ons, apart from the engine. Nothing magical there.

Marky911 wrote:


Anyway I’m off to bed.
Mind you, not before I’ve looked at some possible cars to buy. I’m mad about those Toyota MR2 Ferrari 355 replicas at the moment.

I mean really the mythology that surrounds those Ferrari’s is just a story about some daft Italian bloke wanting to race at Le Mans, wherever that is. As if anyone’s going to buy into that.



Your comparison needs a little work - if you said you were looking for an F355 that you wanted to turn into a Challenge Stradale, then it would work.

For more accuracy we'd need the F355 to have a different engine from the CS, but be otherwise identical bar bolt-ons.

The MR2 simply isn't relevant here, unless you are claiming that a Carrera C4 is actually based on a Japanese hatchback and shares zero automotive DNA with the GT3 - which would be ambitious.
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DarthFaker
Trainee


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 57



PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You spent all that money on a Cabriolet? OK then.. PC

Dont know
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2412



PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone needs a hobby. You could call it a Speedster if that helps?
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77szymon
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 14 Mar 2018
Posts: 327
Location: UK

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
Lurching back to the man maths...

Fingers plucked from the air for discussion purposes-

Say you had £30k cash.

A: Lets say you bought a decent 996 C2 for £15k, and spent £15k on it on suspension and engine rebuild. Then you sell for for £20k 3 yrs later. So you're £10,000 worse off.

Or B: buy a GT3 for £50k, £30k down, £20k financed at 5% over 3 yrs. Due to comparative rarity, sells 3 yrs later for £50k. Lost zero, plus finance costs on £20k, which at 5% would be £1,600.

So you could afford for the GT3 to lose £8400 in value and you'd be no worse off.

Question


"decent" sorted suspension and new engine GT3 for £50k yes please I will take one..... but more serious I love 996.2 GT3 but with my £££ I would not drive that car as I'm driving my C4S also for GT3 money you can step in to GT4 and ……. there is nothing to add more,

everyone of us would love to have GT3 but most of us own C2 or C4 so in case of engine rebuild conversion give you some chance to be closer to GT3 performance for much less money.

Would like to see some 996.2 Mezger vs Hartech 3.9 battle worship
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1988 BMW 635csi Highline - waiting for full restoration
1999 BMW e36 328i Cabrio - still not finished project.....
2011 Mercedes S350L - SOLD
2004 Audi a2 1.4 tdi - I can't stress enough how good these cars are
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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2732



PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus Neil, you’ve got over £60k in a 996 cabriolet? Surprised

If it sold for £22k-£25k you’d be £40k down. Wowzers. I thought I’d wasted a bit losing £10k on my C2.

I’m trying to see your “GT3 cabriolet” vision but as I think I’ve said a GT3 would have been my choice plus an early Boxster for those roof down days.
Plus to be fair you were looking at coupes the other week, to make another one from.

If only one do-it-all car is an option then you’re now into 981 Spyder money and waaay past 987 Spyder money. Both are tremendous cars. The latter would make a great project as Rich ELA will no doubt prove with his.

A man needs a hobby but that £40k loss could be a chunk off a mortgage. I’d take the couple of years earlier retirement that that could provide. Plenty of time for hobbies then. Thumb
I’m all for a project but I work too hard to spunk those sort of figures creating something just to “see if I can”, when there are already great alternatives available (that could also be tweaked if you get bored).

Like I say though we are coming at it from totally different view points. Neither of us are wrong. Thumb

Happy to provide my 996.2 for a get together once the Hartech builds are all up and running. Must be after April though as I’ve loads of housey stuff on from next month. Thumb

Last edited by Marky911 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that my experience with my trusty old 996.2 GT3 is fairly unique:

I've done 157K miles in the car since I bought it 12 years ago with 20K on it. It's still on it's original gearbox. Other than a year when it was running a lower Cup final drive (I didn't get on with it), the gearing has remained standard while it's been through its 4 engine size changes which means that I've been able to do comparisons while just changing engine size with the rest of the platform remaining broadly the same.

It's variously been a 3.6, 3.9, 3.8 and now a 4.0. It's done probably around 50K track miles (238 trackdays including around 3,500 laps at Spa and > 800 at the 'ring). In other words, it's been well-used and has "had a life". It ran on slicks for 3 years and it most certainly got them up to race temperature (around 90-100 degress centigrade), contrary to what Baz asserts.

The engine is incredibly tough - I finally retired the original crank (it was still within spec) only a few ,000 miles ago when an RSR crank went in (4mm longer stroke) to take it out to 4.0 Conrods need changing because titanium will crack in the end. I'm on my 3rd set of rods now, but went to Carrilo steel rods last time for reasons of cost & longevity.

Some observations about capacitity increases:

The sweetspot in terms of power & driveability on the standard stroke (76.4mm) was as a 3.8 (102mm bore). The engine just breathes perfectly & unsurprisingly, this is what the 997.2 GT3 has. Since I'm lucky enough to also have one of these, it's served as a good benchmark.

The difference that adding a mere 4mm of stroke to the 3.8 engine is quite marked since it's now got a 12.6:1 compression ratio. It's just got so much more torque everywhere. I can trickle along in 6th at tickover and it will pull all the way to the redline without a hiccup. I'm not chasing BHP since torque is what will drag you out of corners. The car feels like it's got a low pressure turbo or supercharger on it but can still rev out like a N/A engine. Weirdly, on the road the 4.0 is returning 29mpg on a run to the 'ring (so doing about 85mph all the way). This is 5mpg better that it was as a standard car all those years ago. On track it's always been around 9 to 11mpg depending on track & enthusiasm.

Rebuilding a Mezger is a costly exercise and doing it right (a new oil pump is advised after 1500 hours and costs about £1K) will not get you much change from £18K using Porsche parts and a meticulous & skilled engine builder. Going to a 4.0 will add an extra 50% and that's without optioning the Porsche titanium rods which are over £1K each last time I looked.
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Marky911
Magny-Cours


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Nick. Great info. Thumb
 
  
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coullstar
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1659
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good debate this. I agree no matter what you do to a C2, C4 etc it will not be a GT3 especially as, like it or not, us Porsche owners are quite fickle. It may perform like one but the fact it didn't come from the factory as one will always matter.

If I could afford a GT3 a GT3 I'd have. I can't so it wont happen, I would certainly entertain £10k on a rebuild though, that is relatively attainable.

I also love that folks are prepared to tinker like hell with these engines as allows us part time tinkerers know what works and what doesn't.
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HSC911
Long Beach


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather have a GT2 then a GT3...



 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7456
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HSC911 wrote:
I'd rather have a GT2 then a GT3...





Me too Embarassed Fight
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Teffers
Monza


Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 160
Location: West Mids


PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
I suspect that my experience with my trusty old 996.2 GT3 is fairly unique:

I've done 157K miles in the car since I bought it 12 years ago with 20K on it. It's still on it's original gearbox. Other than a year when it was running a lower Cup final drive (I didn't get on with it), the gearing has remained standard while it's been through its 4 engine size changes which means that I've been able to do comparisons while just changing engine size with the rest of the platform remaining broadly the same.

It's variously been a 3.6, 3.9, 3.8 and now a 4.0. It's done probably around 50K track miles (238 trackdays including around 3,500 laps at Spa and > 800 at the 'ring). In other words, it's been well-used and has "had a life". It ran on slicks for 3 years and it most certainly got them up to race temperature (around 90-100 degress centigrade), contrary to what Baz asserts.

The engine is incredibly tough - I finally retired the original crank (it was still within spec) only a few ,000 miles ago when an RSR crank went in (4mm longer stroke) to take it out to 4.0 Conrods need changing because titanium will crack in the end. I'm on my 3rd set of rods now, but went to Carrilo steel rods last time for reasons of cost & longevity.

Some observations about capacitity increases:

The sweetspot in terms of power & driveability on the standard stroke (76.4mm) was as a 3.8 (102mm bore). The engine just breathes perfectly & unsurprisingly, this is what the 997.2 GT3 has. Since I'm lucky enough to also have one of these, it's served as a good benchmark.

The difference that adding a mere 4mm of stroke to the 3.8 engine is quite marked since it's now got a 12.6:1 compression ratio. It's just got so much more torque everywhere. I can trickle along in 6th at tickover and it will pull all the way to the redline without a hiccup. I'm not chasing BHP since torque is what will drag you out of corners. The car feels like it's got a low pressure turbo or supercharger on it but can still rev out like a N/A engine. Weirdly, on the road the 4.0 is returning 29mpg on a run to the 'ring (so doing about 85mph all the way). This is 5mpg better that it was as a standard car all those years ago. On track it's always been around 9 to 11mpg depending on track & enthusiasm.

Rebuilding a Mezger is a costly exercise and doing it right (a new oil pump is advised after 1500 hours and costs about £1K) will not get you much change from £18K using Porsche parts and a meticulous & skilled engine builder. Going to a 4.0 will add an extra 50% and that's without optioning the Porsche titanium rods which are over £1K each last time I looked.


I love you.
Have I driven this one? I seem to recall a steady lap in it ...
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teffers wrote:
I love you.
Have I driven this one? I seem to recall a steady lap in it ...


I'm not sure, possibly in one of its previous incarnations. I recall we had a steady lap in the GT2 with you driving after I had demonstrated that it could do a 360 spin in the width of the track coming out of Bergwerk Floor

You are always welcome to sample the beast but it might taint the C4S a bit...

See you in May Thumb
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 315



PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting reading threads like this. A fair bit of willy waving going on. all in good taste and with good humour obviously.
Personally I just can't see the point of dropping £20 or £30k into a C2/4 to try and create a GT3. For what purpose? Shave a second off your 0-60 on the way to work in the morning?
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4b4
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Jun 2015
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Location: Suffolk


PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
Everyone needs a hobby. You could call it a Speedster if that helps?


Floor
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7389
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

g911omr wrote:
It's interesting reading threads like this. A fair bit of willy waving going on. all in good taste and with good humour obviously.
Personally I just can't see the point of dropping £20 or £30k into a C2/4 to try and create a GT3. For what purpose? Shave a second off your 0-60 on the way to work in the morning?


By that logic, why spend an extra £40k on a GT3 rather than a Carrera? Same reasons?

Nobody is doing that though are they? They are interested to see what the power/performance difference between a 996 with a larger carrera engine is and a GT3. Seems fair enough. Personally, when it comes to modifying cars I enjoy the process. I would much rather modify a C2 or C4 for track work than to buy a GT3, not because I think it would be better, but because I enjoy tinkering with cars and making something to my vision. With many of my cars I have spent more time working on them than I ever did driving them. To see it as Man Maths and work out that financially it would be better to buy a GT3 is missing the point for many.

My next plan is to buy a C4S and put a GT3 engine and gearbox in it, after rebuilding the engine to 4l. The car will have GT3 suspension and better brakes, it won't be trying to be a GT3, if it were I would have used a C4 chassis. I like the look of the C4S so want would would have been the 996 version of the current GT3 touring. No aerokit, just a decent engine / suspension / brakes. Financially I might be better off buying a standard GT3, but that is missing the point. I don't want a standard GT3, I want a car I can work on and develop. To me it would be like paying extra to buy a jigsaw puzzle because it has already been finished, or a constructed Lego set. It isn't as much about the finished product, as it is about the journey to get there.

On the other hand, that might just be me Question

MC
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 315



PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Each to there own and obviously no offence meant. I too, spend more time tinkering than driving, I also have a Series 3 Landrover......
Back in the day me and my mates were all driving Mk 1 1.1 Ford escorts with 1.6 Capri GT engines. 40hp to 90hp and all for £25 and an afternoons work. Very Happy
Drum brakes all round as well. Very Happy
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:

On the other hand, that might just be me Question

MC


It's not just you. I've always modded stuff. That way, you learn; otherwise you're simply an operator who buys the latest shiny and trusts that the engineers have done a good job. They generally do, but other things change along the way too & not always for the better. The 991.1 GT3 only had PDK & to me, although they were fast & refined, they lost a vital connection with the driver.

I love the rawness of the 996 GT3 platform, which is why I've stuck with mine for so long. No doubt I have spent many times more than the original purchase price modding it over the years but I don't care. The journey, the people you meet & friends you make along the way, the memories good & bad - all of those are more than worth the price.

Keep on modding & damn the torpedoes!
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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Albert Park


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1659
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen to that. My thoughts exactly.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15643
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the guys who enjoy modding and seeing what does or doesn't work its part of the fun of ownership and it becomes your interest/hobby and heres my man maths and I am going to use a Dammit type theory as the example as he's spent a lot on his Carrera.

1/you buy a Carrera 15k intend to own it for 10 years plus you then spend 40k enjoying modding it as this is your interest total outlay 55k future value 22k loss 33k

2/ you buy a Carrera 15k spend nothing on it and decide to play golf as your interest/hobby over 10 years at 3k pa aprox
total outlay 45k future value 10k loss 35k

I cant make the owning a GT3 comparison as I genuinely dont know what costs over 10 years would be to own one and maintain it well.

I am only making this example to highlight that if modding you car is your hobby then that has a value as you would spend money on any other hobby and its not about making money but its about the fun of seeing what things do.

Thumb
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