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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:47 pm    Post subject: Fitting electric power steering Reply with quote

I've bought a trw electric power steering pump from a Vauxhall with the plan of fitting it in the frunk. I'll be honest and say that I haven't actually looked at it yet but I need some help.
There are some nice pictures online of how they are mounted but where I'm stuck is how do I sort the pipes and how to route them. Should I take the rack off and take it to a hydraulic hose specialist to have the hoses braised on to the existing fittings?
Where can I feed the pipes through into the frunk?

Slightly random but I'mplanning on fitting a small battery. Would there be any issues with the current draw while the cars running?

As usual, all helps welcome. I'd like to get this sorted so I can move onto the next headache Floor
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GMG
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 460
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...a signature of the 996 and earlier 911s is it's sublimely tactical steering feel...why on earth would you want to replace this with electric steering from a Vauxhall Zafira ?

Each to their own...but really Dont know
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7304
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...a signature of the 996 and earlier 911s is it's sublimely tactical steering feel...why on earth would you want to replace this with electric steering from a Vauxhall Zafira ?

Each to their own...but really Dont know


I don't see why that would change. The rack doesn't know what is sending the fluid.

MC
 
  
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Martin996RSR
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 419



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can only improve the car by allowing the heavy old pump to be removed, along with the long pipes that go with it.

Ned, you have probably reached this stage already, but my next step would be to ascertain the types ans sizes of unions required at each ends of the hoses and then approach a hydraulic hose specialist to knock some up once you've figured out your routing/spec. If your hoses at the rack end are anything like mine then you wouldn't really want to re-use them.
 
  
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GMG
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 460
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...the pump valving, weighting etc will influence steering feel, will it not ? There will be an engineered synergy between the respective steering components which equate to the sensation experienced at the wheel...

Fiddling with this will corrupt this critical Porsche feature...can't see that a substitution involving a Vauxhall zafira part is going to improve it Dont know
 
  
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Griffter
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 365



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...the pump valving, weighting etc will influence steering feel, will it not ? There will be an engineered synergy between the respective steering components which equate to the sensation experienced at the wheel...

Fiddling with this will corrupt this critical Porsche feature...can't see that a substitution involving a Vauxhall zafira part is going to improve it Dont know


I think the Zafira pump runs continuously, just as a mechanical pump does. Presumably as long as it supplies enough fluid at the right pressure the rack can work normally. It’s not like a modern ePAS system which uses an electric motor for assistance and only operates when the wheel is turned. The latter is the system I have on my S2000 and frankly it’s brilliant. I can’t even tell it’s there. But I had a Civic with the same and it was awful. Steering was momentarily stiff until the system detected I was turning the wheel, then suddenly the assistance came in. Horrible.

Ned I’m quite intrigued by this (despite no longer having a 996). A bit of googling suggests the pump requires an “engine running” signal and that it may even have a PAS ecu. Also that the pump does draw a fair bit of power and is troublesome if the battery is weak. I’m sure you’ll get it done but it seems there may be some fiddling and faffing required!

On a separate note, your perpetual enthusiasm does amuse me! Personally I’d stick to one thing at a time, but my posts would be boring!! Good luck with it.
 
  
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffter wrote:
GMG wrote:
...the pump valving, weighting etc will influence steering feel, will it not ? There will be an engineered synergy between the respective steering components which equate to the sensation experienced at the wheel...

Fiddling with this will corrupt this critical Porsche feature...can't see that a substitution involving a Vauxhall zafira part is going to improve it Dont know


I think the Zafira pump runs continuously, just as a mechanical pump does. Presumably as long as it supplies enough fluid at the right pressure the rack can work normally. It’s not like a modern ePAS system which uses an electric motor for assistance and only operates when the wheel is turned. The latter is the system I have on my S2000 and frankly it’s brilliant. I can’t even tell it’s there. But I had a Civic with the same and it was awful. Steering was momentarily stiff until the system detected I was turning the wheel, then suddenly the assistance came in. Horrible.

Ned I’m quite intrigued by this (despite no longer having a 996). A bit of googling suggests the pump requires an “engine running” signal and that it may even have a PAS ecu. Also that the pump does draw a fair bit of power and is troublesome if the battery is weak. I’m sure you’ll get it done but it seems there may be some fiddling and faffing required!

On a separate note, your perpetual enthusiasm does amuse me! Personally I’d stick to one thing at a time, but my posts would be boring!! Good luck with it.


I’m glad I amuse someone Floor

This is basically the system that the cup cars use and seems to be getting more popular. I might have to be careful selecting a battery after this but my current Yuasa 3017 weighs in at 21.2kgs according to google. I’m not going mad with the weight but that is brutally heavy.
As far as one thing at a time goes, I’ve spent 2 weeks in the house with a new born, I may not be hands on in the garage but I’m getting a plan sorted. I made polybushes this week for my dog bones and will make the rest when I get a chance.

Martin I’m not sure about the unions yet, are the ones porsche use not hard to get hold of? I may have that wrong but I was under the impression that they’re hard to get out of the rack without breaking and very expensive.

I had thought that there would have been a few guys in here that had been down this road, maybe not. Either way, I’m all ears
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7304
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a pump, haven't done anything with it yet.

MC
 
  
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mc we’ll have to develop something between us Thumb

On the bushes, I’m back to work tomorrow so I’ll sus them out if I can get hold of the boy
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7573
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When ever we are doing something more unusual at work or just need things like different coloured wiring then this place is pretty good ...

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/
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Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Demort. I’ll give it a look when I get a chance. I’d say it’ll probably be a local job to get the pipes made though. Haven’t even thought about the wiring side yet.
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 678



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have successfully done this, and proven on track. - When I get the time I will list all of the items required and how I went about fitting.

The pump is a TRW pump that can be bought from Porsche Motorsport, as the pump is fitted to 997 & 991 Cup cars.

Porsche themselves actually do a kit to convert a GT3 but it will not fit an M96 as the PAS delete pulley and various other parts differ.

Someone noticed that the very same TRW pump is also used on lesser models, i.e Vauxhall Zafira, thus can be had for significantly less than Porsche want.

Sourcing the pump is the easy part its everything else that was the difficult.

In doing the mod you will not save significant weight, and you will not gain significant power. - I saw the benefit for fitting being increased reliability.
 
  
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2384



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chap on the 996 Facebook group did this - Aivars Riddlers.

Matt Faulks/PPBB commented about the control software being the most involved part of the whole thing, rather than the physical plumbing.

I'm kind of interested in this modification (frees up a pulley location) and kind of not (takes up boot space).
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
I have successfully done this, and proven on track. - When I get the time I will list all of the items required and how I went about fitting.

The pump is a TRW pump that can be bought from Porsche Motorsport, as the pump is fitted to 997 & 991 Cup cars.

Porsche themselves actually do a kit to convert a GT3 but it will not fit an M96 as the PAS delete pulley and various other parts differ.

Someone noticed that the very same TRW pump is also used on lesser models, i.e Vauxhall Zafira, thus can be had for significantly less than Porsche want.

Sourcing the pump is the easy part its everything else that was the difficult.

In doing the mod you will not save significant weight, and you will not gain significant power. - I saw the benefit for fitting being increased reliability.


Hi crash. I have the pump and am keen to do it. I have a whine which I suspect is my standard ps pump so that’s my main push for doing it along with the desire to give my self a headache Floor

Any help would be greatly appreciated
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
Chap on the 996 Facebook group did this - Aivars Riddlers.

Matt Faulks/PPBB commented about the control software being the most involved part of the whole thing, rather than the physical plumbing.

I'm kind of interested in this modification (frees up a pulley location) and kind of not (takes up boot space).


Dammit I have that on fb. I think Matt said there is a newer version which uses its own Ecu but aivars is the older simpler pump, just like what I’m doing
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dammit wrote:
Chap on the 996 Facebook group did this - Aivars Riddlers.

Matt Faulks/PPBB commented about the control software being the most involved part of the whole thing, rather than the physical plumbing.

I'm kind of interested in this modification (frees up a pulley location) and kind of not (takes up boot space).


Dammit I have that on fb. I think Matt said there is a newer version which uses its own Ecu but aivars is the older simpler pump, just like what I’m doing
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Shalmaneser
Newbie


Joined: 11 Nov 2019
Posts: 14



PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



This image from Rennlist of the cup setup is quite useful. Clearly there's a power cable with a relay in it - presumably this is driven from the ignition switched live from the car itself.

A guy on 986 forum says:

- PS pump wiring is as follows:
red - battery +12V
brown - ground
black - ignition +12V (i.e., only runs when key is on)
blue/white - alternator dash light (to turn it off if the key is on but car not running)
brown/white - not required (for diagnostics)

As far as the plumbing goes I'd have a chat with a Pirtek shop if there's one nearby you. They've made me up power steering pipes before while I waited and have every conceivable hydraulic fitting normally in stock! Clearly there will be a high pressure line which will need crimped fittings. The return line will be at much lower pressure and will probably just need hose clamps.

Maybe worth getting a 986 steering rack so you can examine the threads at your leisure! I see there's one on ebay now for £60.
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NedHan79
Hockenheim


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 653



PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shalmaneser wrote:


This image from Rennlist of the cup setup is quite useful. Clearly there's a power cable with a relay in it - presumably this is driven from the ignition switched live from the car itself.

A guy on 986 forum says:

- PS pump wiring is as follows:
red - battery +12V
brown - ground
black - ignition +12V (i.e., only runs when key is on)
blue/white - alternator dash light (to turn it off if the key is on but car not running)
brown/white - not required (for diagnostics)

As far as the plumbing goes I'd have a chat with a Pirtek shop if there's one nearby you. They've made me up power steering pipes before while I waited and have every conceivable hydraulic fitting normally in stock! Clearly there will be a high pressure line which will need crimped fittings. The return line will be at much lower pressure and will probably just need hose clamps.

Maybe worth getting a 986 steering rack so you can examine the threads at your leisure! I see there's one on ebay now for £60.


Thanks for that. My racks accessible atm as I’ve a lot of the stuff stripped off for other work and this is the time to take a stab at it.
I need to have a look and see where I can get the hoses through first to get a length and go from there
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bullet-proof_biscuit
Newbie


Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Posts: 42



PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like these projects, nice and easy.

Regards hoses into frunk; bring the two hoses through the firewall/frunk floor with 'bulkhead hydraulic fittings', it will keep the outside outside, and they will be ncie neat weatherproof penetrations.

As mentioned above you want the pump to only come on with engine running, NOT with just ignition live, this is usually achieved by taking a feed from the alternator exciter wire, which also feeds the charge warning lamp on the dash, to liven the PAS pump relay- (the charge light on the dash is earthed, then when the alternator is spinning it gives out 12v from the exciter connection, so giving the 12v across the dash charge lamp).

Can't think of another easy solution for a running only +ve signal..

Last edited by bullet-proof_biscuit on Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7304
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bears a strong resemblance to the pump I have.



MC
 
  
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