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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7303
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Removing Secondary Air Injection 996.1 Reply with quote

Has anybody removed SAI from a 3.4l 996 with electronic throttle? I understand it was introduced in MY2000. Does anybody know if it can be coded out? I would like to remove the equipment and just fit blanking plates. I know on earlier cars a ROW tune car be used, but is this try for these? If so how is it done?

MC
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17120
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you mean by coded out? Do you mean a different fuel map to compensate for what it does?
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2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7573
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst obviously i don't know everything ..

I don't ever remember seeing a coding option for this , as its save the planet stuff then i very much doubt it could be coded off .

It's there for fast warm up of the cat as i'm sure you know and from memory the car operates it once in a drive cycle at operating temps and looks at the lambda sensors to see a lean mixture to prove this system is working ok .


I can't see a way of mimicking this to fool the system .

I've seen these systems being defective with no eml on but there is always a fault code listed .

A remap does not alter the actual coding of a dme so as this is a software instruction then i think you are a bit stuck .. but if no eml then does a fault code really matter Question

Software is different for each year .. the dme i believe is coded to Row for our market so it will be year dependant .

A bit out of my comfort zone so all i can offer .

My thoughts anyways .
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17120
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the only time the SAI pump operates is at cold start and pumps extra air into the cats to fool them the engine is running lean and therefore adds more fuel - so it acts as a choke system? Dont know


The only time it runs on mine is at cold start.
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7573
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do only operate when cold but the car can't see if they are working at that point as no lambda sensors .. open loop .

Extra air when cold causes the cats to run lean and generate more heat .. a fast warm up of them due to the extra oxygen .

The car will turn them on .. from memory when it's at operating temps as a test to see if they are working or not .. at this point it will flag a fault code if it doesn't see a response from the lambda sensors .

That's how i understand it anyways Smile
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17120
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More info here:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RaanuEGHWuwC&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=what+does+the+sai+pump+do+on+a+996&source=bl&ots=FiR6WzbR4N&sig=ACfU3U1rnpCBIM6fF9Rvc0OPZFx8HO1d3A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk-NPnmIbmAhURHcAKHTL9AmcQ6AEwIHoECGMQAQ#v=onepage&q=what%20does%20the%20sai%20pump%20do%20on%20a%20996&f=false
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7573
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex .. i'm far too old to be learning new stuff .. the amount i forget every day is getting scary Razz

That does explain it nicely though Thumb
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17120
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grin Thumb
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P0tential
Newbie


Joined: 08 Jun 2019
Posts: 27
Location: Finland


PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The previous owner has had the SAI pump removed from my car, which is a 1999 C4 so electronic throttle / PSM. No codes, but I don't know if the car's been mapped and the shop who did my engine rebuild 2 years ago couldn't tell for sure either as they don't do remaps. The car runs fine and the revs stay up a while when cold, so I haven't paid more attention to it.
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7303
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P0tential wrote:
The previous owner has had the SAI pump removed from my car, which is a 1999 C4 so electronic throttle / PSM. No codes, but I don't know if the car's been mapped and the shop who did my engine rebuild 2 years ago couldn't tell for sure either as they don't do remaps. The car runs fine and the revs stay up a while when cold, so I haven't paid more attention to it.


AFAIK the C4 was always e-throttle, is your a 1999 MY car then? I.E. registered before August 1999?

MC
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17120
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Porsche:

MY1999

The cabriolet and four-wheel-drive Carrera 4 versions of the 996 were unveiled at the Paris MotorShow in October 1998 for the 1999 model year. The Porsche Side Impact Protection System (POSIP)was introduced, as were clear indicator lenses front and rear to distinguish the car from the Boxster,and to counter criticism of the ‘fried egg’ look of the front lights. The cabriolet mechanism was fast,and could lower or raise in just 20 seconds. Cabriolets came with a removable hardtop, colour-coded to the bodywork. The cabriolet was around £6000 more to purchase than the Coupe equivalent.The 4 wheel drive system was available for both Coupe and Cabriolet, and was nearly £4000 morethan the 2 wheel drive model. Various modifications to the front end were required to make room for the front axle final drive, which resulted in a smaller front luggage compartment, and the use of a deflated space-saver wheel under the floor of the compartment. The C4 was also available in tiptronic transmission for the first time. Engine management was by Bosch Motronic 7.2, which introduceddrive-by-wire throttle control, often referred to as eGas.The four wheel drive system added 55kg to the overall weight, but performance figures were quotedidentical to the C2 equivalent due to improved traction. The extra weight at the front end gave aweight balance of 40-60, compared with 38-62 for the C2. The 4-piston calipers manufactured forPorsche by Brembo were painted in a ‘titanium’ (silver) colour for the C4, as opposed to black for theC2. Perhaps the most significant introduction on the C4 was Porsche Stability Management (PSM). Toquote the Porsche Service Information Document of the time: “PSM is an active control system forstabilising a vehicle at the limit of its driving dynamics capability. PSM includes functions such as ABS,ABD, ASR (traction-slip control), EBV (Electronic Brake-force Distribution), as well as a longitudinaldynamics control system MSR (engine drag torque control). In addition to this, the vehicle is stabilisedat the limit of its driving dynamics capability within the transverse dynamics control system by FDR(driving dynamics control system)."From the outside there is virtually no difference in appearance, other than the Carrera 4 enginecompartment badge, silver calipers, and a new design of 17” alloy wheels.
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7303
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great, thanks, so I just need to find somebody who can reflash with a MY 1999 version of the firmware and maps.

MC
 
  
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fot0
Newbie


Joined: 03 Apr 2018
Posts: 28
Location: Thames Valley


PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My C4 was registered 1998 with e-gas and no air-pump. The only reason I knew when I dropped the engine using Pelican parts blog. I could not find the 'elusive' air pump and assumed this was US emissions. Only later did I find this fitted to RoW in later cars. Whether there is a blank plug in the engine bay I do not know.
 
  
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deMort
Dijon


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 7573
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well above what i know about this but just a query ..

maps = the running parameters of the individual sensors... these can be adjusted .

Firmware or software is whats fitted .

Would there be any other differences between the software from a 99 to a 2000 model that might be altered with a software change Question

ie something other than the SAI is what i'm wondering and this will stop working ... early cars have x1 cam sensor .. later and x2 .. will one stop working ?
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My Daughter's Crowdfunding has hit the target .

Thank you all so Very much .

She's not going until july 2020 though .



Mechanic

7pm - 9pm

Now At An Indy.
 
  
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 678



PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have done it to my MY2001.

Wayne Schofield flashed the ECU when the car was being mapped.

In removing the Secondary Air Pump, and using a different code, you can also lose two of the O2 sensors, I cant remember if they were pre or post, I can check if you like.
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7303
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
Yes, I have done it to my MY2001.

Wayne Schofield flashed the ECU when the car was being mapped.

In removing the Secondary Air Pump, and using a different code, you can also lose two of the O2 sensors, I cant remember if they were pre or post, I can check if you like.


That would be fantastic, thanks. I'll need new Lamdba sensors and buying 2 rather than 4 would be good.

MC
 
  
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 307



PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car is an early 2000 C2 with electronic throttle but only 2 O2 sensors.
Whereabouts is the air pump located?
 
  
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dc2100k
Newbie


Joined: 28 Oct 2019
Posts: 41



PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 2001 996.2 and I have just driven 40 miles with no SAI pump fitted (left it off after doing some work, went for a test run to bleed the coolant). I can confirm there are no CEL and no pending trouble codes on my OBD2 reader.

I have capped the pipe with a bit of rubber and jubilee clip. There is quite a vacuum pull through it on startup but this dissipates shortly after. I’m considering putting the pump back on for safety’s sake as unless you cap the rubber hose off at the engine there is the risk of something being sucked in. Has anyone capped this off with a bung or cap that fits securely?
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7303
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be looking to remove the entire assembly and fit the Porsche covers and gaskets to the cylinder block. I'll post details when I do it.

You say there are no codes after a drive, personally I wouldn't necessarily expect to see any. I think it might take 3 or so cold start runs for it to show up.

MC
 
  
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dc2100k
Newbie


Joined: 28 Oct 2019
Posts: 41



PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mistercorn. I would blank it off it it didn’t require the alternator et al to be removed to get the the SAI valve, so I think I’m going to pop it back on for the time being. Will keep an eye out for codes etc in the meantime.
 
  
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