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Hartech Naming & Shaming Policy

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bazhart said:
Ironically we have this week just received the worst engine rebuild we have every seem carried out by another UK Porsche specialists (for a Cayman S).

Just a few months down the line from the rebuild it was knocking and running poorly and now is here to be repaired from an owner who having already spent on one failed cheaper rebuild will probably be unable to afford the top level rebuild we could have provided if it had come here in the first place - a lose - lose situation.

This engine had iron liners (which for technical reasons we do not recommend) that had sunk (not sealing the head - 30% area only), a 3.6 piston fitted to a different model (presumably replacing a scored Cayman S one) with the top machined down to the same overall height (entirely wrong as it has a totally different pin to head dimension since the 3.6 has a different stroke and con-rod length), a very short gudgeon pin (that had slipped to one side and run the piston out of square damaging a liner), a piston circlip not fitted (found in the sump), a cracked coolant housing (unable to seal), Ra bore finishes so rough they had worn the coating off the pistons already, too tight a bore clearance (for iron liners) - where do I end?

Being probably the most well recommended repairer - we get some stick from competitors and trolls alike (especially over the slightly more expensive Nikasil plated aerospace liners we have fitted by their thousands without issues) and as a result - tend to steer away from posting details about the increasing number of engines we are getting in for a proper rebuilds after a failed one has already gone wrong built by a growing number of others trying to get in on the increasing level of business.


Baz

With the greatest respect, would it not be prudent to either post the name of the company concerned along with the info about the poor rebuild, or just not mention it at all? IMO those comments just cast doubt and aspersion over EVERY other specialist apart from yourself.

I'm genuinely not being a 'troll', your reputation speaks for itself, but as I say I think the above comments will serve to cause paranoia to anyone considering using ANY other rebuild company other than yourselves, which may not be entirely fair.
 
.agree RST... It's not terribly helpful to be told that a Porsche Specialist ***** up an engine rebuild horribly and have no idea whom this is Baz...

You might be able to prevent another hapless victim from losing a ton of cash...

I understand the issues that are guiding you however sometimes we need to stick our necks out if only for moral reasons...
 
Look guys, there are a number of issues that resulted in our policy not to name and shame.

FIRSTLY there is the COMMERCIAL BUSINESS side of things. I know many of you will hate me for saying this but there really is no one else in the specialist Porsche market with anything like my experience, qualifications and proven track record in designing , manufacturing and delivering high performance Porsche engine remanufacturing technology - Worldwide.

This is said not to boast but to explain why over 15 years ago we recognised the technical weaknesses of this engine range and were confident we knew how to fix it – but more importantly we also realised that the highest quality could only be delivered if all the work was kept 'in house" and that would mean massive investment in all sorts of expensive machinery, organisation, training and quality control that could only be justified if the outcome was receiving enough of the work available upon which to amortise those costs – it was simple business economics based on anticipated turnover – based on engineering judgment and confidence.

It was a typical business commercial RISK that we correctly anticipated the right numbers we expected to fail (and over what period ahead when everyone else was disagreeing with our projections as scare mongering) and that lots of specialists would try and get in on that market – each handling smaller numbers, relying on outside sub-contractors to do some of the work (outside of their direct control) and being unable themselves to justify such huge investment for a smaller market share.

We guessed right and have had the best designs and since then – by handling far more engines than anyone else – and continually investing - it does not become rocket science to see trends and issues to concentrate on-going development on - which sustains that technical lead, results in more and more quality options and alternatives , more experienced staff and results in the highest quality at very reasonable prices.

We don't limit what we do to the most expensive options but discuss them with customers (to suit their circumstances), we fit our cylinders to crankcases and/or build bottom ends and/or whole engines for other specialists to benefit from that quality (and get a share of the income) and of course the whole job with a reputable guarantee.

In the last 2 years alone we continued to invest in another CNC machine, better Alloy welding equipment, engine cleaning machinery (to clean up the tarnished external finish) and dynamometer improvements (to improve repeatability of oversized engine test results) while spreading our hefty research and development into newer engines, performance enhancements and continual improvements in components and internal parts. No one else comes close to that.

We absolutely are not the most expensive (but also not the cheapest) but I defy anyone to make out a case that we do not offer by far the best value for money and the most reliable outcome.

Now you complain because we are not telling you who not to go to so you can work out which other specialists you could try as an alternative to us – which inevitably reduces our turnover and with that the investment that has benefitted so many owners for so long.

SECONDLY there is the simple fact that we do not know all the details of what was agreed between owners and their chosen specialist before their engine rebuild went wrong (not everyone tells us the truth about it). We also don't know what that specialist was promised by the sub-contractors they chose to supply or fit their liners, pistons etc. This is important because that specialist might use us for one rebuild and other technology or sub-contractors for others (depending perhaps on their customers preferences) and if some outcomes are better than others – that would not necessarily mean that sub-contractor should be black listed.

Thirdly we appreciate that some owners prefer to use their local trusted specialist that knows them and their car to carry out most of the work (and anyway we don't have the space or staff to do the whole job for everyone) and that those specialists may have a learning curve to go through (they will just be behind us in experience but perfectly capable of getting better) and so as long as they are using us for the important parts – we support them as best we can, even when they encounter a few small issues – which do not deserve harsh criticism – as long as they help their customer when small things go wrong – to put them right without trying to deflect the blame elsewhere.

Fourthly – some problems result in litigation between the owner and their chosen specialist and it is always better in those circumstances to keep details private or it can limit the owner's legitimate case.

Finally we are accused of NOT BEING PRUDENT. Dictionary definition is 'someone who is sensible, careful, has good judgment and is practical". It speaks for itself that we could not be more PRUDENT than to offer the best engine rebuild options available to all that want to use it at reasonable prices and with proven reliability.

We know that what we offer is the best available, why on earth should we be expected to damage our own future (that has cost us such a lot of hard work and effort to create) just so that owners can work out who else to go to that cannot offer anything like as much researched and 'IN HOUSE" expertise or overall quality – than we can?

Naming and shaming is not our style – you want the best – you know what to do – you go elsewhere – it's at your risk – why should you expect me to minimise it for you?

Baz
 
Robert SausageTrousers said:
those comments just cast doubt and aspersion over EVERY other specialist apart from yourself.


I'm sure he wouldn't that.



bazhart said:
Now you complain because we are not telling you who not to go to so you can work out which other specialists you could try as an alternative to us
Baz


Alright then, he would.

:grin:
 
Marky - come on now - that's not casting any aspersions whatsoever on anyone else!

In fact I have so much on my plate I was up at 4.30am dealing with this one and a bit bleary eyed as I tried to communicate to the 911.uk readers - but on the way to work a couple of other thoughts crossed my mind.

We DID discuss these issues many times and came to the conclusion that many owners do not read Porsche forums and trust their local specialists - so any posts are unlikely to reach a wide ownership.

That being the case many owners are in the hands of their specialist many of whom want all the work they can get and may not themselves know who to believe about liner materials and their suitability or otherwise etc.

However a specialist that gets it wrong and has to re-visit their rebuild and do something again (or compensate the customer) would have to manage several other rebuilds well to recover the costs of just one mistake.

I mean - if they made say 5 or 10% profit on the job (not easy when parts and consumables are expensive) they stand to make - what? a few hundred pounds profit and just one return (let alone a re-strip and new consumables) would soon absorb all that.

So we cannot do anything about those specialists who make mistakes except hope the poor ones decide not to risk it again and/or send the engine somewhere else and profit from the work left for them to do that they are capable of.

Even mentioning a poor one by name gives them exposure (and they say no publicity is bad publicity) so leaving things to the owner and what he might decide to do about it - we think - is a better way to help overall than your suggested alternatives.

I appreciate that this means some owners will choose a poor supplier and experience a poor outcome - but there is enough publicity from satisfied owners out there to support the better alternatives and if the owner has not taken that advice or found it soon enough - I don't see how we can get to them to warn them anyway.

Those that do read up on this stuff already know what risks they are taking.

I am not saying we are right and agree you have a right to your opinion but I repeat - why should I help you go somewhere else when I know that you will not get a better job anywhere else and could easily get a worse one.

We can only justify our continued huge investment if we keep busy exploiting the benefits that accrue that also benefit owners.

No one else matches that commitment or investment. Many independents and owners have benefitted from our free technical advice and explanations and then taken work away from us using some of the technical benefits they have got free from us already - we even make available the results of research and technical explanations about the weaknesses and pros and cons of different solutions - but now it seems - we have to let everyone know if there is anywhere else they can go instead of us?

We accept that it is preferable in the greater scheme of things to try and make sure every rebuild is going to help secure the reputation of the marque and help owners keep driving and loving their chosen sports cars - but do we really have to spell out to you a list of competitors you can choose to go to instead or avoid as well as everything else we do to help maintain the quality of the marque and recover the costs of the investment that leads to the benefits we offer? We are in business after all!

In my working life the greatest problem that I have found is the lack of UK investment in industry (going for softer options in property etc). With an election due the same old issues compete.

One side want things on a plate to get the money form everyone they can and think they know how to spend it for the best (when they have no idea about business or industry) and the others want the freedom to invest in their own futures, take their own risks and with it try to benefit their employees and society as a whole.

I cannot help but see a correlation between expecting us who have done all the hard work and done without things personally to divert profits into future investment to be expected then to give away what we know to everyone else FOC and those that want to sit back and benefit from our enterprise.

If you want to avoid a risk - you know what to do - if you want to take it - you can work it out for yourselves and accept the consequences - I am not going to help you any further than we already do.


Baz
 
Guys ,I agree with Baz he cannot for various reasons that he's explained name and shame. He is commercially involved in the market .

But that is one of the advantages of a forum such as this ,it is not sensitive to the same things that Hartech are and we can and do name and shame, as we also praise and recommend . and this policy as long as its proven correct is supported by the site admin.

:thumb: :thumb:
 
Surely if Baz was to name and shame others he then would be open to litigation even if eventually proven correct it would involve lots of money, never mind time and hassle that frankly no-one needs. As a responsible businessman it would be plain silly to do it and potential business suicide. Those on here, as private individuals can recount their experiences and as long as true will have no resulting issues.
 
There is nothing to be gained, but lots to lose if Baz starts naming and shaming competitors;
They already have a full workshop, holding area and backlog of work from people who believe they are the best option.
Naming and shaming won't enhance their excellent reputation will it. At best it'd look like sour grapes, at work could end with costly legal fees.

maybe we have a poll;
anyone who has experienced an engine rebuild by non-hartech company
how many of these then had subsequent reliability problems?.

How many Hartech rebuilds
How many hartech with subsequent reliability problems?

That makes me 1 ,1 and 1, 0 on that basis
 
I think it is also important to recognise that we only know about feedback from our own customers.

After we send out blocks or engines to other specialists we don't receive feedback from the owners and can only assume everything went OK.

We also never know the full story about the reasons behind engines coming here to be rebuilt after going wrong somewhere else (and really it is none of our business).

And we have no contact with people that do get rebuilds done elsewhere and are happy with them.

All we know is that what we do is very well received (and therefore we should be able to make that point) and that what some others do is not (but not why unless it involves solutions and technology that we see repeating itself - like failed iron liners).

I did make the point that we will not be the only people that can carry out a reliable rebuild and explained why we don't name and shame.

I don't see why we cannot state that if you use our liners or we repair your engine or car - you can rely on the outcome - nor that we receive failed engines that others have repaired and therefore that those in need of repairs should be wary.

I understand that some would love us to spell out who and what but at least we respond in the media to both comments and with technical advice but I think it is up to owners to describe their experiences (good or bad) and not us who are too closely involved.

Baz
 
Surely it's up to the owner of the car to name and shame. :dont know:

Anything else is just the usual......I knew a bloke / there's a bloke down the pub / my mate's mate once.......etc. which everyone gets slated for.
 
Alex said:
Surely it's up to the owner of the car to name and shame. :dont know:

Anything else is just the usual......I knew a bloke / there's a bloke down the pub / my mate's mate once.......etc. which everyone gets slated for.

Exactly :thumb:
 
brownspeed said:
maybe we have a poll;
anyone who has experienced an engine rebuild by non-hartech company
how many of these then had subsequent reliability problems?.

How many Hartech rebuilds
How many hartech with subsequent reliability problems?

That makes me 1 ,1 and 1, 0 on that basis
That makes me 1 ,0 and 0, 0
 
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