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Macca38
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Joined: 10 Sep 2019
Posts: 25
Location: London


PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Popping out of second gear Reply with quote

Hi All

Recently bought a 996T in August and put it straight into storage. Plan was to leave until March then bring it home and put in the garage. Long story short my daily driver is out of action so picked up the Porsche this morning, got to near home and was coasting in second gear and it just popped straight out of gear. Got a bit further near home then the same thing happened again. Prior to owning the car i had full inspection and it passed with flying colours.

First thought is a new clutch! Anyone experienced anything similar but didn't need a clutch replacing? The clutch feels good and the inspection said it felt like it had plenty of wear!?!

Cheers
Neil
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MisterCorn
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2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing to do with the clutch, it is one of the most common faults on these gearboxes. I believe you will need new second gear synchros. I'd talk to Matt at Fearnsport or another company who deal with these a fair bit. Sports and Classic perhaps.



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Marky911
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it’s worse than clutch unfortunately. Gearbox rebuild time.

There’s a gadget you can get that supposedly “fixes” it without a rebuild but apparently it just moves the strain elsewhere and still results in a rebuild.

Google 2nd gear detent.


Edited - Martin beat me to it.
Other gearbox rebuilders are available. At a much more affordable rate. Fearnsport and S&C are recognised as the best though. Wink
 
  
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Macca38
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks chaps.

Had a good look online, gutted:-)

oh well, straight to the garage. On the subject of garages, i live in East London. East London Porsche is 200 metres from house, alternatively i have JZM, RPM and a few other garages in Essex not far away.

Would OPC be not a good option for something like this?
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kas750
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Macca38 wrote:


Would OPC be not a good option for something like this?


Only if you want your gearbox replaced with a new unit from Porsche.
A specialist is the way to go with this for a repair. Thumb
 
  
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Macca38
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trip to Fearnsport on Saturday it is then. Spoke to Matt, may not be as bad as i thought.
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P911X50
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please PM me to let me know how much it costs. I may need it dome too. thumbsup
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wherever you are, you can get a specialist to remove the box and courier it on a palette to Mike at Sports & Classic who can rebuild it and courier it back for fitting back into the car.

Cost for this common issue ain't cheap. Porsche have raised the prices of parts considerably over the years. Added to this is the fact that at high mileage, Mike micrometers all the components and advises if anything is worn beyond tolerance and will benefit from being replaced.

It is rarely (exceptionally? given the mileage and age of the 996 engines nowadays?) a straightforward 'simple' 2nd gear synchros replacement. These factors of other wear n tear combine to make this total cost of repairs expensive.

Straight 2nd gear synchro replacement with nothing else including labour to remove the box, strip, rebuild and re-fit back into the car is gonna be around the £4k mark. Plus cost of anything else that will benefit from being replaced whilst its in bits - mainly parts prices rather than labour.

Worth a phone call to Mike at Sports & Classic - he has a lot of these rebuilds from other indys who send the boxes to him as well as bodged rebuilds from other specialists.

The G-Box (USA) detent (spring) solution is not a long term fix - though there will be cars offered for sale with this solution to move the car on but only to develop a bigger and more costlier rebuild down the line (on another owner).

There is a reason why the detent spring is not a long term solution - but best to call Mike and ask him. The detent solution is not appropriate of there is grating trying to get the car back into 2nd gear. But it can temporarily fix the pop out in the early stages.

It is not just the 996 cars that suffer this - Mike will tell you it is across the 996 NA cars as well as Turbo and GT3 and in the 997 cars also.

I do not know of Fearnsport activity in gearbox rebuilds, but I do know MIke rebuilds a lot of these boxes each year and many are sent to him from indys down South and across the country.
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Macca38
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P911X50 wrote:
Please PM me to let me know how much it costs. I may need it dome too. thumbsup


Sure no problem
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Macca38
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
Wherever you are, you can get a specialist to remove the box and courier it on a palette to Mike at Sports & Classic who can rebuild it and courier it back for fitting back into the car.

Cost for this common issue ain't cheap. Porsche have raised the prices of parts considerably over the years. Added to this is the fact that at high mileage, Mike micrometers all the components and advises if anything is worn beyond tolerance and will benefit from being replaced.

It is rarely (exceptionally? given the mileage and age of the 996 engines nowadays?) a straightforward 'simple' 2nd gear synchros replacement. These factors of other wear n tear combine to make this total cost of repairs expensive.

Straight 2nd gear synchro replacement with nothing else including labour to remove the box, strip, rebuild and re-fit back into the car is gonna be around the £4k mark. Plus cost of anything else that will benefit from being replaced whilst its in bits - mainly parts prices rather than labour.

Worth a phone call to Mike at Sports & Classic - he has a lot of these rebuilds from other indys who send the boxes to him as well as bodged rebuilds from other specialists.

The G-Box (USA) detent (spring) solution is not a long term fix - though there will be cars offered for sale with this solution to move the car on but only to develop a bigger and more costlier rebuild down the line (on another owner).

There is a reason why the detent spring is not a long term solution - but best to call Mike and ask him. The detent solution is not appropriate of there is grating trying to get the car back into 2nd gear. But it can temporarily fix the pop out in the early stages.

It is not just the 996 cars that suffer this - Mike will tell you it is across the 996 NA cars as well as Turbo and GT3 and in the 997 cars also.

I do not know of Fearnsport activity in gearbox rebuilds, but I do know MIke rebuilds a lot of these boxes each year and many are sent to him from indys down South and across the country.


After lots of research Fearnsport and S & C cropped up loads as the people to take a 996 Turbo with this particular problem. Fearnsport have lots of good references for this work and after chatting to Matt he clearly knows what he is talking about. Fearnsport isn't too far from me so will make a good drive Saturday morning. With regards to bills i didn't buy a turbo thinking i would get away scott free so this isn't a worry for me. Dropping the engine and sending off on a pallet is a bit of a faff and i need the car back reasonably quickly so Fearnsport ticks all the boxes. I plan to keep this car for the long term so quite happy to have peace of mind for a little while longer:-)
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear you have a solution. I have MIke at S&C on my door step and often pop round for a coffee and chat and see the curios on the ramps as well as whats in for gearbox rebuild, which is why I know he does a lot of this work and knows his way round the intricacies and the remarkable things people have attempted as bodge ups - truly amazing...

I cant speak for your chosen repairer, but Mike does mention that he makes a series of modifications which he does not disclose the details of that make the solution a lasting solution. I believe him and am of the view this is not marketing hype.

Clearly, you have embarked on the best solution - a full gearbox strip and rebuild. It is the only solution because the dog teeth have become chipped on 2nd gear synchro or rounded off thus reducing their contact surface (normal being only a mm or so for the bite surface) and the 2nd gear synchros on a 996 turbo are different shape to that on the other gears which makes that gear particularly prone to damage.

Anybody buying a Turbo that has had a G-Box detent spring fitted by a prior owner is just waiting for a much bigger bill down the road and I do hear tales anecdotally of people fitting it prior to selling it.

Glad to hear that you are sorted. This is a problem that is irrespective of mileage. Mike sees it on cars with less than 30k miles as well as higher mileage examples.
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are very few specialists who are actually capable and competent at these sorts of gearbox repairs. they are, sadly, common on Mezger engined 996 and 997 cars (GT3, GT2 & turbo), which share the same 'box. The turbos seem worst, i guess because they have more shove.

I'd say with either Fearnsport or Sports & Classic you are in safe hands.

This was what my 996 neede replacing when it had 2nd gear pop out:





Much more than just 2nd needed replacing. Apparently, according to Mike at S&C it was the original assembly (fit a adjustment) rather than the components themselves, that was at fault on these cars.
 
  
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cheshire911
Estoril


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
There are very few specialists who are actually capable and competent at these sorts of gearbox repairs. they are, sadly, common on Mezger engined 996 and 997 cars (GT3, GT2 & turbo), which share the same 'box. The turbos seem worst, i guess because they have more shove.

I'd say with either Fearnsport or Sports & Classic you are in safe hands.

This was what my 996 neede replacing when it had 2nd gear pop out:





Much more than just 2nd needed replacing. Apparently, according to Mike at S&C it was the original assembly (fit a adjustment) rather than the components themselves, that was at fault on these cars.


Exactly why it is not a mileage related issue. Mike makes a number of changes during the rebuild that overcomes factory alignment issues.
Looking at the chipped dog teeth in your photos, thats pretty bad. And a hell of a lot more than 2nd gear synchros replaced. Some indys claim to be able to fix and replace 2nd gear synchros but it becomes a bodge up job unless other components are replaced after measuring them up and examination for wear. The parts prices for all that lot must have come to a tidy sum! High mileage cars also may require crown wheel and pinion issues correcting - adding even more cost to the repair for 2nd gear pop-out.
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sportsandclassic
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Joined: 21 Apr 2008
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Location: Nether Alderley Cheshire


PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Afternoon,

As already stated above there are certain internal modifications/adjustments that are required to prolong the service life of the newly installed gears.
Anything above 60k miles WILL require pinion bearings as the pinion height will be incorrect due to bearing wear.

The reason for the pop-out can be a number of things and not all these issues are dealt with by just fitting a gear and shift sleeve. We have had many gearboxes that have been "repaired" only to jump out of 2nd gear in a very short space of time. We have dismantled the gearbox and sorted the issues out retaining the newly fitted gear and shift sleeve in most cases.


Mike
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IMI A
Barcelona


Joined: 02 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sportsandclassic wrote:
Good Afternoon,

As already stated above there are certain internal modifications/adjustments that are required to prolong the service life of the newly installed gears.
Anything above 60k miles WILL require pinion bearings as the pinion height will be incorrect due to bearing wear.

The reason for the pop-out can be a number of things and not all these issues are dealt with by just fitting a gear and shift sleeve. We have had many gearboxes that have been "repaired" only to jump out of 2nd gear in a very short space of time. We have dismantled the gearbox and sorted the issues out retaining the newly fitted gear and shift sleeve in most cases.


Mike


Hi Mike, I run a manual 997.1 turbo with circa 92,000 miles. 9e tuned to circa 650- 700bhp and 32,000 reliable miles including VMAX , drag events etc. Are the 997 turbo manual boxes improved or do they also suffer these issues and if you perhaps offer a rebuild service for cars say running 700bhp is it a much more expensive affair than say a normal rebuild or can your own proprietary upgrades handle a fair bit more power than stock? Cheers Imi

PS Box feels bullet proof to be fair and other than 2nd gear being a bit stiff for first 5-10 mins on cold mornings its fanatstic. Its done this second gear stiffness from when I took delivery new - amazing as our air-cooled does this too.
 
  
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Macca38
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Joined: 10 Sep 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
Glad to hear you have a solution. I have MIke at S&C on my door step and often pop round for a coffee and chat and see the curios on the ramps as well as whats in for gearbox rebuild, which is why I know he does a lot of this work and knows his way round the intricacies and the remarkable things people have attempted as bodge ups - truly amazing...

I cant speak for your chosen repairer, but Mike does mention that he makes a series of modifications which he does not disclose the details of that make the solution a lasting solution. I believe him and am of the view this is not marketing hype.

Clearly, you have embarked on the best solution - a full gearbox strip and rebuild. It is the only solution because the dog teeth have become chipped on 2nd gear synchro or rounded off thus reducing their contact surface (normal being only a mm or so for the bite surface) and the 2nd gear synchros on a 996 turbo are different shape to that on the other gears which makes that gear particularly prone to damage.

Anybody buying a Turbo that has had a G-Box detent spring fitted by a prior owner is just waiting for a much bigger bill down the road and I do hear tales anecdotally of people fitting it prior to selling it.

Glad to hear that you are sorted. This is a problem that is irrespective of mileage. Mike sees it on cars with less than 30k miles as well as higher mileage examples.


Managed to get up to see Matt on Friday and was more than impressed with the set-up at Fearnsport. They do all rebuilds in-house and only seem to deal with GT2-3 and Turbos, they do loads for Motorsport etc as well so I'm very happy with my choice of garage. Looking forward to getting it back now!
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