and it will always end up at Hartech for a proper rebuild
worth using the more expensive liners and in the grand scheme of things why not spend a bit more as once its done its done. I don't get that mentality of the trolls and others of knocking your work and approach. its proven and so many HT cars out there running sweet post rebuild. _________________ 997 C2s Schwarz
its proven and so many HT cars out there running sweet post rebuild.
My 996 was fully rebuilt about 7 years ago........
I was in contact recently with the guy who bought it off me and he has had no issues whatsoever.
He's had the car about 5 1/2 years.
I was lucky to have a warranty but at first they were very reluctant to pay up.
I told them that I wanted Hartech to rebuild it but a young man on the end of the phone said they would be using "their" chosen re-builders that they use all the time........Diesel engine re-builders
Obviously, I did not let that happen. _________________ 2015 991.1 C4GTS PDK
2010 997 C4S PDK sold
2003 996 C2 Tip sold
Phil 997 Le Mans
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 15550 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
When my gen2 needed a rebuild ( not a fault of the DFI engine before anyone panics) I personally didnt give a second thought to who it was going to for a rebuild. Baz and Grant have so much knowledge of these cars and their communication was outstanding , Yes I was aware I could possibly have got it rebuild somewhere a bit cheaper but I wanted it done by the best of the best. and for gen1 owners just having the peace of mind its been fitted with the stronger Nikasil liners has to be worth it. _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
When my gen2 needed a rebuild ( not a fault of the DFI engine before anyone panics) I personally didnt give a second thought to who it was going to for a rebuild. Baz and Grant have so much knowledge of these cars and their communication was outstanding , Yes I was aware I could possibly have got it rebuild somewhere a bit cheaper but I wanted it done by the best of the best. and for gen1 owners just having the peace of mind its been fitted with the stronger Nikasil liners has to be worth it.
couldn't agree more Phil, exactly my thought process too. I was offered steel liners from a place near me, made my mind up, straight to Bolton. _________________ Porsche Carrera 2S 2005 black fully Hartech'd!, BMW Z4 coupé 2007 blue, Mazda Eunos 1996 yellow, VW Passat 2014 black.
We all do silly things/make mistakes, it's how we deal with them that sets us apart from animals and Americans.
DAVIDGT996 Trainee
Joined: 24 Feb 2019 Posts: 76 Location: Colchester
Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: Rebuild
Phil 997 wrote:
Have a read of this review , it may be worth considering a chat with these guys as they sound like an extremly well priced set up for rebuilds etc . you may end up getting a price for a fix that doesn't give you sleepless nights.
yes can recommend Angus @ Archer Motorpsort as well. Sorted out my 996 that had borescore on 4 & 5 cylinders. Gave me the option on sending Bank 2 to Hartech for liners but as mine already had the closed deck design I went for the westwood liners.
He knows his stuff and was the best priced I could find at the time (near to me) for the other extras I needed doing as well. _________________ 2001 C2 Coupe Tip
Black, GT3 kit, lowered
carcrazypop Trainee
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 93 Location: North Staffs.
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:08 pm Post subject:
Robert SausageTrousers wrote:
For the poll, my engine was rebuilt 4-5 years ago and runs like a Swiss watch, i've never had to put a drop of oil in between changes (6k miles) and it pulls like a train. (Famous last words!)
Can I please ask who did your rebuild ? Thanks. _________________ 2005/55 997 C2S Tip. Coupe.
Robert SausageTrousers Monza
Joined: 02 Apr 2018 Posts: 235
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:14 pm Post subject:
JAZ Porsche.
carcrazypop Trainee
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 93 Location: North Staffs.
Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:40 pm Post subject:
Robert SausageTrousers wrote:
JAZ Porsche.
Eporsh in Bisley, Woking did mine. _________________ 2005/55 997 C2S Tip. Coupe.
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17119 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
When you say ***** did the rebuild (as the two posts above), did they actually do the rebuild and to what extent? _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Hertsdriver Nürburgring
Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 468 Location: Hertfordshire/London
All of it as in machining cylinder liners out, etc? I thought the was only Hartech who had the capability to do everything inhouse _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Hertsdriver Nürburgring
Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 468 Location: Hertfordshire/London
milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed. _________________ My 997.1 C2 ownership thread: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=134228
Robert SausageTrousers Monza
Joined: 02 Apr 2018 Posts: 235
Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject:
Yeah the head was sent off for machining, and the front bumper sent off to be repainted, but ****** (not sure why we're not allowed to mention their name?) did the rest in house. With a full service, chains etc and all the associated bits and bobs, the bill was just over £10k, with a 2 year or 20k mile warranty.
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17119 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed.
Not true. I know what these engines are like and what problems Hartech have had to overcome when doing them. It's not as simple as bore those cylinders out to 'x' diameter. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Hertsdriver Nürburgring
Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 468 Location: Hertfordshire/London
milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed.
Not true. I know what these engines are like and what problems Hartech have had to overcome when doing them. It's not as simple as bore those cylinders out to 'x' diameter.
No, its absolutely true. Milling it out is very straightforward, providing you have the machinery.
Knowing what the 'x' is to mill it out to is the issue, and that is where an engineering shop needs to be properly directed. _________________ My 997.1 C2 ownership thread: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=134228
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17119 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
In a perfect world yes. But that's not the case with these engines. No 2 blocks are the same. In fact - I'd go as far to say they are an Engineering embarrassment. The pitch on the bores (distance between each bore) are all over the place, the heads aren't skimmed flat and sometimes even have a step on them where its been done in 2 passes at different z-axis coordinates. The bores aren't always in line to the positions on the crank, the bore offsets from bank 1 & bank 2 are all over the place......I could go on.
Until you've measured these things to death and spent tens of thousands on proper custom made jigs, fixtures and tooling, forget about it. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Phil 997 Le Mans
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 15550 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
I am not 100% but seem to remember Hartech telling me that they also improve the flow of oil on their rebuilds , I may be wrong as it was almost a year ago I first talked to them about this and I have had a lot of sleeps since then. _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17119 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
They do various machining mods to improve oil / water flow for better temperature control of the engine. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
Hertsdriver Nürburgring
Joined: 12 Nov 2018 Posts: 468 Location: Hertfordshire/London
In a perfect world yes. But that's not the case with these engines. No 2 blocks are the same. In fact - I'd go as far to say they are an Engineering embarrassment. The pitch on the bores (distance between each bore) are all over the place, the heads aren't skimmed flat and sometimes even have a step on them where its been done in 2 passes at different z-axis coordinates. The bores aren't always in line to the positions on the crank, the bore offsets from bank 1 & bank 2 are all over the place......I could go on.
Until you've measured these things to death and spent tens of thousands on proper custom made jigs, fixtures and tooling, forget about it.
When you mill a bore for a liner, you find the centre point of the current bore, then use that as the datum. The heads have got nothing to do with the bore machining, neither has the position of the crank or anything to do with how poorly made the engine was in the first place. You find the centre, and machine out to the desired size. It really isn't difficult. Knowing the correct size is obviously the important bit, but if you instruct a machine shop to bore out to 'x' mm, thats what they will do.
You can see Hartechs machining in their engine rebuild video on their website, I don't think by looking at it its a cnc machine like a SERDI, it looks like an old school milling machine worked by an experienced engineer (apologies if that isnt correct, its a very short burst of a timelapse video).
The Hartech solution isn't an interference fit as the material is the same as the block (albeit the surface of the bore is Nicasil plated) , and the liner is held in place by their proprietary closed deck design. A more traditional iron or steel liner would require undersized machining and then heating the casting before installing the liner. In my limited experience of 2 stroke engines (go karts, lambrettas) Nicasil as fitted by Hartech is clearly the better long term option, but Baz has already admitted that an Iron or Steel liners can work in this application, depending on how well they are installed, and how correct the tolerances are for heat expansion etc. _________________ My 997.1 C2 ownership thread: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=134228
Alex Le Mans
Joined: 06 Mar 2014 Posts: 17119 Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire
Trust me, Hartech machine the bores in the correct position they should've originally been in at the right pitch to each other. Just because it may not be a CNC does not mean they don't machine to a set pitch and accuracy from set datums relevant to the crank position. If they didn't, for starters, the flats on the top hats of the liners would interfere and not fit.
And to say the pitch on the crank pins has no relevance to the pitch on the bores
Example - if the pitch on the crank pins is say 100mm and the pitch on the bores is 102mm, by the time you got to the 3rd bore you'd be 6mm out. How's that not relevant? They wouldn't line up with each other.
To pick up each individual bore knowing the pitch on them is out is cowboy engineering and not how I'd do it, Hartech do it or any other decent Engineer would do it. _________________ 2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible
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I personally didnt give a second thought to who it was going to for a rebuild. Baz and Grant have so much knowledge of these cars and their communication was outstanding , Yes I was aware I could possibly have got it rebuild somewhere a bit cheaper but I wanted it done by the best of the best. and for gen1 owners just having the peace of mind its been fitted with the stronger Nikasil liners has to be worth it. 
