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NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1553
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pay cheap you buy twice....

and it will always end up at Hartech for a proper rebuild Wink

worth using the more expensive liners and in the grand scheme of things why not spend a bit more as once its done its done. I don't get that mentality of the trolls and others of knocking your work and approach. its proven and so many HT cars out there running sweet post rebuild.
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 727
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its proven and so many HT cars out there running sweet post rebuild.

My 996 was fully rebuilt about 7 years ago........

I was in contact recently with the guy who bought it off me and he has had no issues whatsoever.

He's had the car about 5 1/2 years.


I was lucky to have a warranty but at first they were very reluctant to pay up.

I told them that I wanted Hartech to rebuild it but a young man on the end of the phone said they would be using "their" chosen re-builders that they use all the time........Diesel engine re-builders Floor Floor Floor Floor

Obviously, I did not let that happen.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15550
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When my gen2 needed a rebuild ( not a fault of the DFI engine before anyone panics) Grin I personally didnt give a second thought to who it was going to for a rebuild. Baz and Grant have so much knowledge of these cars and their communication was outstanding , Yes I was aware I could possibly have got it rebuild somewhere a bit cheaper but I wanted it done by the best of the best. and for gen1 owners just having the peace of mind its been fitted with the stronger Nikasil liners has to be worth it. Thumb Thumb
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jl-c
Monza


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 235
Location: Shropshire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
When my gen2 needed a rebuild ( not a fault of the DFI engine before anyone panics) Grin I personally didnt give a second thought to who it was going to for a rebuild. Baz and Grant have so much knowledge of these cars and their communication was outstanding , Yes I was aware I could possibly have got it rebuild somewhere a bit cheaper but I wanted it done by the best of the best. and for gen1 owners just having the peace of mind its been fitted with the stronger Nikasil liners has to be worth it. Thumb Thumb


couldn't agree more Phil, exactly my thought process too. Thumb I was offered steel liners from a place near me, made my mind up, straight to Bolton.
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We all do silly things/make mistakes, it's how we deal with them that sets us apart from animals and Americans.
 
  
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DAVIDGT996
Trainee


Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 76
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Rebuild Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
Have a read of this review , it may be worth considering a chat with these guys as they sound like an extremly well priced set up for rebuilds etc . you may end up getting a price for a fix that doesn't give you sleepless nights.


http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=130564
yes can recommend Angus @ Archer Motorpsort as well. Sorted out my 996 that had borescore on 4 & 5 cylinders. Gave me the option on sending Bank 2 to Hartech for liners but as mine already had the closed deck design I went for the westwood liners.

He knows his stuff and was the best priced I could find at the time (near to me) for the other extras I needed doing as well.
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carcrazypop
Trainee


Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 93
Location: North Staffs.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert SausageTrousers wrote:

For the poll, my engine was rebuilt 4-5 years ago and runs like a Swiss watch, i've never had to put a drop of oil in between changes (6k miles) and it pulls like a train. (Famous last words!)


Can I please ask who did your rebuild ? Thanks.
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Robert SausageTrousers
Monza


Joined: 02 Apr 2018
Posts: 235



PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAZ Porsche.
 
  
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carcrazypop
Trainee


Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 93
Location: North Staffs.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert SausageTrousers wrote:
JAZ Porsche.


thumbsup
Eporsh in Bisley, Woking did mine.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you say ***** did the rebuild (as the two posts above), did they actually do the rebuild and to what extent?
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 468
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know JAZ do their own work and do not farm it out to Hartech.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of it as in machining cylinder liners out, etc? I thought the was only Hartech who had the capability to do everything inhouse Dont know
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 468
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed.
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Robert SausageTrousers
Monza


Joined: 02 Apr 2018
Posts: 235



PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah the head was sent off for machining, and the front bumper sent off to be repainted, but ****** (not sure why we're not allowed to mention their name?) did the rest in house. With a full service, chains etc and all the associated bits and bobs, the bill was just over £10k, with a 2 year or 20k mile warranty.
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver wrote:
milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed.


Not true. I know what these engines are like and what problems Hartech have had to overcome when doing them. It's not as simple as bore those cylinders out to 'x' diameter.
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 468
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Hertsdriver wrote:
milling out a liner isn't exactly challenging from a machining point of view. Most engineering shops could do it if they are properly directed.


Not true. I know what these engines are like and what problems Hartech have had to overcome when doing them. It's not as simple as bore those cylinders out to 'x' diameter.


No, its absolutely true. Milling it out is very straightforward, providing you have the machinery.
Knowing what the 'x' is to mill it out to is the issue, and that is where an engineering shop needs to be properly directed.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a perfect world yes. But that's not the case with these engines. No 2 blocks are the same. In fact - I'd go as far to say they are an Engineering embarrassment. The pitch on the bores (distance between each bore) are all over the place, the heads aren't skimmed flat and sometimes even have a step on them where its been done in 2 passes at different z-axis coordinates. The bores aren't always in line to the positions on the crank, the bore offsets from bank 1 & bank 2 are all over the place......I could go on.

Until you've measured these things to death and spent tens of thousands on proper custom made jigs, fixtures and tooling, forget about it.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15550
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not 100% but seem to remember Hartech telling me that they also improve the flow of oil on their rebuilds , I may be wrong as it was almost a year ago I first talked to them about this and I have had a lot of sleeps since then. Thumb
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They do various machining mods to improve oil / water flow for better temperature control of the engine.
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 468
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
In a perfect world yes. But that's not the case with these engines. No 2 blocks are the same. In fact - I'd go as far to say they are an Engineering embarrassment. The pitch on the bores (distance between each bore) are all over the place, the heads aren't skimmed flat and sometimes even have a step on them where its been done in 2 passes at different z-axis coordinates. The bores aren't always in line to the positions on the crank, the bore offsets from bank 1 & bank 2 are all over the place......I could go on.

Until you've measured these things to death and spent tens of thousands on proper custom made jigs, fixtures and tooling, forget about it.


When you mill a bore for a liner, you find the centre point of the current bore, then use that as the datum. The heads have got nothing to do with the bore machining, neither has the position of the crank or anything to do with how poorly made the engine was in the first place. You find the centre, and machine out to the desired size. It really isn't difficult. Knowing the correct size is obviously the important bit, but if you instruct a machine shop to bore out to 'x' mm, thats what they will do.

You can see Hartechs machining in their engine rebuild video on their website, I don't think by looking at it its a cnc machine like a SERDI, it looks like an old school milling machine worked by an experienced engineer (apologies if that isnt correct, its a very short burst of a timelapse video).

The Hartech solution isn't an interference fit as the material is the same as the block (albeit the surface of the bore is Nicasil plated) , and the liner is held in place by their proprietary closed deck design. A more traditional iron or steel liner would require undersized machining and then heating the casting before installing the liner. In my limited experience of 2 stroke engines (go karts, lambrettas) Nicasil as fitted by Hartech is clearly the better long term option, but Baz has already admitted that an Iron or Steel liners can work in this application, depending on how well they are installed, and how correct the tolerances are for heat expansion etc.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17119
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you've watched the video.

Trust me, Hartech machine the bores in the correct position they should've originally been in at the right pitch to each other. Just because it may not be a CNC does not mean they don't machine to a set pitch and accuracy from set datums relevant to the crank position. If they didn't, for starters, the flats on the top hats of the liners would interfere and not fit.

And to say the pitch on the crank pins has no relevance to the pitch on the bores Surprised

Example - if the pitch on the crank pins is say 100mm and the pitch on the bores is 102mm, by the time you got to the 3rd bore you'd be 6mm out. How's that not relevant? They wouldn't line up with each other.

To pick up each individual bore knowing the pitch on them is out is cowboy engineering and not how I'd do it, Hartech do it or any other decent Engineer would do it.
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