Welcome to 911UK
The only place for Porsche, 911uk is the definitive enthusiast and resource site for the Porsche 911.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so join up today for full access to the site and benefit from latest member offers.

Porsche Classifieds
Sell Your Porsche on 911uk
Create a Free Classified Advert
Search Ads
Classified Adverts FAQ
Trade Classified Information
Buyer & Seller Fraud Protection
Consumer Rights Act
Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI)
Porsche Car Sourcing
Porsche Cars Wanted
Official Porsche Centre Reviews
Model
Stock
Porsche 911
992 : 2019- 0
991 : 2011- 24
997 : 2004- 67
996 : 1997-2005 34
993 : 1993-1998 4
964 : 1989-1993 2
Carrera 3.2 : 1983-1989 2
Carrera SC : 1977-1983 2
930 Turbo : 1975-1989 1
Early 911 : 1964-1977 1
Porsche Other Models
Classic : 1950-1965 0
Boxster : 1997- 30
Cayman : 2005- 21
Cayenne : 2003- 7
Macan : 2014- 6
Panamera : 2009- 0
912-914-924-928-944-968 1
959 - CarreraGT - RaceCar 0
Car Parts For Sale & Wanted
Other Items For Sale & Wanted
Wheels Tyres For Sale & Wanted
Number Plates For Sale Wanted

Porsche Services
Porsche Body Shop Repair
Paint Protection & Wrapping
Porsche Classic Insurance
Porsche Classic Parts
Porsche Classic Restoration
Porsche Design Collection
Porsche Engine Gearbox Rebuild
Porsche Heritage & History
Porsche News
Porsche Picture Gallery
Win a New Porsche 911

Porsche Parts
Body Parts, Body Styling
Brakes, Clearance
Electrical, Exhausts
Engine Cooling, Engine Electrical
Engine Rebuild, Heating Cooling
Interior Incar, Lighting
Rubber Seals, Service Parts
Steering, Suspension
Transmission, Workshop Tools
Early 911, 911 - 930, 928 - 968
964 - 993, 996 - 997, Boxster
Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera

Porsche Model Range
911 [992] 2018-Current
Porsche 911 [992]
911 [991] 2011-2019
Porsche 911 [991]
911 [997] 2004-2012
Porsche 911 [997]
911 [GT] GT1-GT2-GT3
Porsche 911 [GT]
911 [996] 1997-2005
Porsche 911 [996]
911 [993] 1993-1998
Porsche 911 [993]
911 [RS] RS-RSR
Porsche 911 [RS]
911 [964] 1989-1993
Porsche 911 [964]
911 3.2 1983-1989
Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera
911 SC 1977-1983
Porsche 911 SC
911 [Early] 1964-1977
Porsche 911 [Early]
Boxster & Cayman
Porsche Boxster & Cayman
Cayenne & Panamera
Porsche Cayenne & Panamera

911uk Site Partners

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
robrac
Newbie


Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Hello New to forum and going paranoid. Reply with quote

Hello

I have just joined the forum to see if its just me thats going paranoid, or are there any other 997.1 owners suffering the same condition as me. Its call Enginus Tappetus. (common symptoms know as tapping and bore scoring.)

Ok,,, I have a 2006 Carrera S full service history and 80k miles.
After reading forum posts, experts notes, Mr fixxit quotes and the like, I have gone paranoid about an imminent self destruction of my baby.

I would like an opinion from the sensible and experienced members.

Its 2000 miles since full service

Slight tapping sound when cold from area of cylinder 6, and it is slightly louder when warm.
Slight smoke on starting then not really seen again.

Drain oil, sump off and its virtually spotless. Oil has no obvious debris.
Cut open oil filter and "read it" and it too is as good as spotless
Plug out of cylinder 6 and it looks oily and cruddy. Piston crown looks damp.
My borescope shows a very small amount of oil sitting in the bore.
Some scoring on the upper part (12 oclock) looks very slight but its there.

So, my question is this......... what do I do at this point?

Do I just jump in and spend an inordinately large amount of hard earned cash or ...............................

?????????????????????????
Question
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
GMG
Nürburgring


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 463
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...it's not looking good tbh...oily plug and piston on number 6 ?

Others on here will be able to offer an experience based view...so don't panic until you have an informed opinion...
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
spongebob squarepants
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 6047
Location: Manchester and Iraq


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally id take the view its a high miles, high performance engine that will need a rebuild at some point. That point is probably some distance in the future, and until it actually does, continue as you are Dont know
_________________
991 C2S PDK - X51 430 powerkit, Carbon GT2 folding buckets, PCCB, PDCC, PSE, Carrera S alloys, Sports design bodykit with ducktail and Alcantara steering wheel. If Carling did a 991S...
“Herman yellow, the last of the naturally aspirated. ”YKIMS"



Apparently other colours are available?

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
FZP
Estoril


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3872
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would get the engine inspected by a professional "with extensive experience in these engines". There have been misdiagnosed cases both ways previously, so save yourself the headache and go get checked.
_________________
997.2 Carrera 2S GT Silver/Cocoa.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 212



PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey bud,
Tough situation to be in.

I would certainly wait for counsel from the likes of Demort and Baz and others that have been in a similar situation.

However if I was in your shoes i would perhaps consider the following before a rebuild.

How many miles do you do per annum?
How long is each journey? is it mixed driving?
You didint mention burn rate of the oil?
What condition is your AOS in?

Would you consider renewing plugs and filters (since they are already out?) and filling with millers nano?

Then monitor the situation over the next 2k miles?
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
RXP.
Monza


Joined: 24 Oct 2017
Posts: 212



PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also how loud is the tapping? Definite change is db when idling when warmed up?

Rising with revs?
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17138
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a borescope done off someone who knows what they're on about, then decide on your next course of action from there.
_________________
2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1553
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreed on the check and done professionally.

however my mates 997 had these symptoms and it was bore score on cylinder 6 and the tapping got louder which was eventually Piston slap due to over heating in that chamber and the piston going out of shape and tolerance.

its nothing in normal measurement terms but in a high performance engine you don't need much for things to start going amiss.

the scoring and noises will probably get worse over time.
_________________
997 C2s Schwarz
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
carcrazypop
Trainee


Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 93
Location: North Staffs.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For your own sanity, I'd definitely get it checked out by a reputable Porsche Indy; they should allay your fears one way or the other, and if it's bad news, they'll be able to give you a way forward with costs.

If you're anywhere near Bisley, Woking, I'd recommend a visit to Porsche specialist Eporsh, they're great guys and won't take your pants down.

If you post up your rough location, I'm sure many on here will be able to make more recommendations.

Good luck.
_________________
2005/55 997 C2S Tip. Coupe.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
   
MJK1
Newbie


Joined: 03 Nov 2018
Posts: 31
Location: Church Broughton, Derbyshire


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you borescoped it did the top of any of the pistons look like this. If so this is likely to be the source of the knocking as it hits the underside of the cylinder head. If so the wear is already well advanced, allowing the piston to tilt in the cylinder. Unfortunately, it’ll then be a rebuild required.
 



166A8FAB-AD37-4FC7-B8A6-FB214A9353DC.jpeg
 Description:
 Filesize:  128.06 KB
 Viewed:  1978 Time(s)

166A8FAB-AD37-4FC7-B8A6-FB214A9353DC.jpeg


  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 727
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Hello New to forum and going paranoid. Reply with quote

robrac wrote:
Hello

I have just joined the forum to see if its just me thats going paranoid, or are there any other 997.1 owners suffering the same condition as me. Its call Enginus Tappetus. (common symptoms know as tapping and bore scoring.)

Ok,,, I have a 2006 Carrera S full service history and 80k miles.
After reading forum posts, experts notes, Mr fixxit quotes and the like, I have gone paranoid about an imminent self destruction of my baby.

I would like an opinion from the sensible and experienced members.

Its 2000 miles since full service

Slight tapping sound when cold from area of cylinder 6, and it is slightly louder when warm.
Slight smoke on starting then not really seen again.

Drain oil, sump off and its virtually spotless. Oil has no obvious debris.
Cut open oil filter and "read it" and it too is as good as spotless
Plug out of cylinder 6 and it looks oily and cruddy. Piston crown looks damp.
My borescope shows a very small amount of oil sitting in the bore.
Some scoring on the upper part (12 oclock) looks very slight but its there.

So, my question is this......... what do I do at this point?

Do I just jump in and spend an inordinately large amount of hard earned cash or ...............................

?????????????????????????
Question



You don't say whether the start up smoke is from one side of the exhaust. and whether on cold only start-up.

Is your oil consumption starting to increase?


If the above aren't too bad, you can still drive the car for ages until you are ready to bite the bullet.

I ran my 996 for 12 months until the water pump went. (80k too)

This is the worst case scenario.......as others have rightly said, get a proper diagnosis by someone qualified.
_________________
2015 991.1 C4GTS PDK
2010 997 C4S PDK sold
2003 996 C2 Tip sold
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15566
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As already said get it scoped by someone like Hartech , and maybe send some oil for analysis, Millers oils offer this service then dependant on findings decide what to do . unlike IMS borescore is gradual ,I know someone who's still driving their car regularly 2years after borescore was first diagnosed. but assuming the worst and it is scored you have a number of options
Get just the one cylinder replaced thats the cheapest option
get just the 1 bank replaced
get a full rebuild using OE parts from someone other than Hartech this may be cheaper than using Hartech.
get a full Hartech rebuild using their new style liners
get a Harlech 3.9 conversion for added grins.

But start saving a bit each month and you May well have most of the money you need before it gets so bad it has to be sorted. And remember this lets assume you spend 12k on a rebuild and you have had the car a year or moorland plan to keep it another few years at least . the rebuild will cost you no more that what you would have lost on depreciation over the same period had you brought pretty much any other marque , the 997 wont have hardly depreciated at all in the same period . So its all relative as theres no such thing as free performance car ownership . Thumb Thumb
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15566
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a read of this review , it may be worth considering a chat with these guys as they sound like an extremly well priced set up for rebuilds etc . you may end up getting a price for a fix that doesn't give you sleepless nights.


http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=130564
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
robrac
Newbie


Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Sanity starting to return Reply with quote

Thank you wise ones,

Rather ironically I am a retired engineer dealing with race engines for motorcycles.

I would not have hesitated in the past to bore a cylinder out and use a liner but reading the various posts, good and bad, I get the feeling to use liners would instantly render me liable to be flogged within an inch of my life with an old copy of exchange and mart.

Interesting about the lack of clearance of the head.

I will scope it again and will have a look at it tomorrow.
Many thanks Question
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1235



PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Get a borescope done off someone who knows what they're on about, then decide on your next course of action from there.


This. Can't say enough, someone who knows what they are looking at, is essentail

Whereabouts are you? Sure we can recommend someone trusted.....

Also, have to ask how much oil you use? Mine is doing about 1200 miles a litre, which is some, but nowhere near to much, and is on 87k miles. Borescope came back clean as a whistle recently, turned out that my new AOS was faulty, so we had another put in......

A good Indy is essential.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
-- 997 --
Barcelona


Joined: 11 Jun 2015
Posts: 1273



PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i bought my 997, approx year later i had the dreded tapping noise, the more i revved the engine faster the tapping up until a certain revs and then you wouldnt hear it, then on idle youd hear it, not condoning this and wouldnt do it but a close mate of mine did say give me your keys and then your car will go missing and ill give your keys back and give me a few days before you cry wolf. ( you know what i mean ) but i wouldnt this kind of thing!!

My car as well as others is show room condition, i decided to bite the bullet and save alittle each month and within 3 months i got the engine rebuild, top to bottom with all new everything!! And have to say the car is running as sweet as my rolex and dont miss a heartbeat!! Worth getting it built when time comes.. its a 997 why shouldnt you!!!!

J
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
robrac
Newbie


Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 4



PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:26 pm    Post subject: got it! Reply with quote

The borescoring rescope just showed very minor scoring in fact it was more of a discolouration rather than scratches)
BUT
there is a hairline crack in the crown of the piston in number 6.
Pressurising the cases proves.

So its to bits it must come

I will do all 6 while I am there Thumb
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MJK1
Newbie


Joined: 03 Nov 2018
Posts: 31
Location: Church Broughton, Derbyshire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear that, will you do the work yourself and just send the blocks off to be relined?
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15566
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: got it! Reply with quote

robrac wrote:
The borescoring rescope just showed very minor scoring in fact it was more of a discolouration rather than scratches)
BUT
there is a hairline crack in the crown of the piston in number 6.
Pressurising the cases proves.

So its to bits it must come

I will do all 6 while I am there Thumb


Thats very interesting , not great news but at least you know the reason and its not scored . now this may become the next thing 997.1 owners panic over Floor but in reality I would think its just one of those things that could happen to any car . at least you can build yourself a keeper and not worry any more
_________________
911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 984
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an engineer and with involvement in racing motorcycle engines - you should find commonality with me and my own experiences that would enable you to benefit more than most from the technical reports we have written and that can be accessed FOC by contacting our Sharon on admin@hartech.org

Just ask for details of the 4 main problems afflicting these engines but be warned it is long and technically detailed and is not for the faint hearted.

You may also be interested in another report available on our oversized engines.

It sounds like you could manage to strip and rebuild the engine yourself (or perhaps after someone else built the bottom end as it requires some special tools) an alternative we are happy to offer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This section of the post has been moved by a 911uk moderator to a separate thread.

See --> Hartech Name and Shame Policy Discussion

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Being probably the most well recommended repairer - we get some stick from competitors and trolls alike (especially over the slightly more expensive Nikasil plated aerospace liners we have fitted by their thousands without issues) and as a result - tend to steer away from posting details about the increasing number of engines we are getting in for a proper rebuilds after a failed one has already gone wrong built by a growing number of others trying to get in on the increasing level of business.

Of course we are not the only specialists capable of carrying out a reliable rebuild but you mentioned liners and I would specifically draw your attention to reading about them and seeing our photos of just how many of the growing number fitted elsewhere that we have had to replace with our own after cheaper rebuilds conducted elsewhere had failed prematurely.

If you read through our report you should benefit from it more than most although from the sound of your own experiences your own engine might well run on for some time - although as an engineer and competition engine builder - I would expect you to want it done right whether you do some of it yourself or not.

Baz
_________________
Click here for the Hartech

You can trust us to "CARE FOR YOUR PORSCHE"
www.hartech.org
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
   
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum