Hi Crash, I don't think we're at odds at all. I originally wrote that I would only keep the second fan if I expected to be stuck in traffic, and you're arguing that in your experience the fan you kept ws necessary to keep from overheating whilst stuck in traffic on the M25 on the way home from Brands. I reckon that's the same viewpoint isn't it?
Dammit Indianapolis
Joined: 23 Sep 2016 Posts: 2483
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:32 am Post subject:
Anecdotal data point - I've crawled my 996 through central London rush hour traffic when its 30 degrees outside, and never for the water temperature needle as high as repeated laps of Brands Hatch got it. _________________ My 996, AKA Project Ridiculous
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1714 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 am Post subject:
Robertb wrote:
Alex wrote:
Petrol's 0.7kg per litre (sorry for being pedantic )
Not at all... interesting, not realised it was lighter than water... guess it makes sense as petrol floats on the waters surface.
I just checked. The internet told me that "the density range of petrol is 710 to 775 gram/ litre at 15 degree celcius. Thus weight of 1 litre of petrol at 15 degree celcius varies from 710 to 775 grams."
It still makes a difference though as all of that weight is up front in a 911. _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1714 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 am Post subject:
I like these weight threads, even if what is meant by 'acceptable' is entirely subjective.
The point has been made above, but the location of the weight is also important, as well as the actual weight. I suspect that the easiest gains are the spare, tools, rear seats, mats etc. (all the removables), and the best gains are around the rear (the exhaust and cats mainly), as well as unsprung weight such as suspension, brakes, rims, and tyres.
I wouldn't have the patience to remove the carpet and the sound deadening, even if it is heavy, but stock seats are really heavy. And I'd stick to a normal battery for the winter. But there are good losses to be made.
For example, in the other car, the weight losses include the rear seats (-17kg), front buckets (Sparco Evo2 with mounts are c 8kg each, together -52kg), Öhlins R&T suspension (which is about 10kg lighter than Bilstein B14s), TTV lightweight flywheel (-6kg), lightweight rims (-20kg), Quaife (-1kg), rear control arms (-1.2kg), but then again I have added a strut brace, an aluminium skid plate, a BBK and a thicker rear ARB, so who knows where I have ended up, maybe 100kg down? _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:16 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the input guys.
MaxA
What is the other car?
I’d be keen to see more on the seats. My “acceptable” term wasn’t very clear but I have a few things I need to abide by. I need the rear seats as my kids love a spin out in it, it’s a big sense of occasion for them from the daily. I’m open to all weight reduction ideas but I need the rear seats and access. I had ruled out fixed buckets until I read ELAs thread where he made the seat bases and rails to suit so he could get the seat to move far enough to let an adult in which is more than plenty. I also need to think about fitting a child seat in the front but I’m sure I can get round this.
Safety issues like air bags are a keeper though I removed the drivers to fit an omp wheel.
On the carpet, is there much to be gained by taking out the sound deadening but retaining the carpet? Is this just a no go as the carpet won’t sit right then? _________________ #modified996mk1
Last edited by NedHan79 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1714 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject:
NedHan79 wrote:
Thanks for the input guys.
MaxA
What is the other car?
I’d be keen to see more on the seats. My “acceptable” term wasn’t very clear but I have a few things I need to abide by. I need the rear seats as my kids live a spin out in it, it’s a big sense of occasion for them from the daily. I’m open to all weight reduction ideas but I need the rest seats and access. I had ruled out fixed buckets until I read ELAs thread where he made the seat bases and rails to suit so he could get the seat to move far enough to let an adult in which is more than plenty. I also need to think about fitting a child seat in the front but I’m sure I can get round this.
Safety issues like air bags are a keeper though I removed the drivers to fit an omp wheel.
On the carpet, is there much to be gained by taking out the sound deadening but retaining the carpet? Is this just a no go as the carpet won’t sit right then?
Sorry to be cryptic, I have a 2006 R53 Mini Cooper S project car (with too much weight at the front). It should weigh 1140kg from the factory but it has a sunroof... so it's more like 1165kg. It has it's own thread in the forum (and another great community).
I run the fixed back Sparco Evo2 in the season (after I test fited a few seats first) which is very comfortable for a bucket seat, and very light. I've done an 8 hour day without any issues. It's on a fixed mount. As such there is no way to access the rear, so I take out the bench and seat backs which liberates a lot of room for rims and gear (and you can still see out!). If I fit runners, the seat would be too hugh, so I don't bother. The side airbags are embedded in the stock seats in a Mini, but they're embedded in the doors in my 997 so it's not an issue.
In the winter, I run the stock set up so I can squeeze one of the kids in the back (there's no room behind me in either car, long legs, they're both 3 seaters).
You can remove the carpet and the sound deadening material but it is a major pain to do for the benefits, and hard to reinstall apparently. Some even strip out seam sealant and thin out the harness - becauseracecar. I'm not going there, but I'll probably add a cage at some point, and try and keep the carpet - a stripped out car is very noisy...
I gather that the Recaro SPGs fit in a 996. But I would suggest you try and test sit in the seats, as some are OK, some are not, we're all different sizes (the Evo for example comes in 4 sizes: small, medium, large and American). _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:12 pm Post subject:
Sounds very interesting. One thing I hadn’t mentioned is that I’m on a budget, I can stretch to things like a decent battery and seats but I need to paint the car so I’m torn on what to do. Either way, it’ll not be painted any time soon.
I’ve seen a lwfw on eBay at reasonable money but I just haven’t pulled the trigger yet as I need to hold back for the paint budget. The seats can wait as I’d rather get the car back in the road with paint and I’ll see about them another time but the flywheel situation needs addressed as I’ll be doing the clutch when I get to that stage.
It’s worth mentioning that I’ve welded a pile of fresh metal back into my sills as they didn’t exist beforehand
There’s also a lot of new sealer to weigh me down
I’m under the impression that this will handle so much better because the front and rear wheel arches are actually connected now _________________ #modified996mk1
Shalmaneser Trainee
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 67
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:32 am Post subject:
As a new 911 owner and serial car tinkerer I've been looking for ways to loose weight from the car without sacrificing usability.
You can argue all day long whether or not anyone can feel the loss of 5kg from the weight of the car but I think most people would agree that you can feel the addition of a passenger on rate of acceleration. An as a previous poster said at's all about incremental gains. And it's a fun engineering and design challenge!
Personally I'll be focusing on reducing weight from the back of the car first. It's true to say that changing the battery to a smaller unit is a quick and easy way to loose weight - it is - but I suspect that one of the reasons Porsche has put such a monster battery on the car is to try to move the centre of gravity forward somewhat.
It stands to reason that the closer to the rear of the car the mass the better it is to remove the weight, so a lightweight exhaust can be justified as it'll reduce weight, improve the noise and (maybe?) free up some horses too. Likewise ditching the standard cats and replacing with 200 cell versions.
One thing that has interested me has been replacing the power steering pump with a electric one from a Zafira. For those of us in the UK these pumps are incredibly cheap, and represents a twin benefit of removing parasitic drag from the engine, and taking a heavy unit from the rear of the car with all the associated plumbing and moving it forward. All without compromising the car in any significant way.
Removing the radio/amplifier/CD changer for a modern bluetooth unit gives a quality of life improvement while also reducing weight from the centre of the car.
Removing the rear wiper from the car is a must for me - I hate the way it ruins the lines of the back of the car and it's a useful couple of kg saved.
I reckon all of these changes wouldn't compromise day to day living - and might even improve it - while saving a good 25-30kg. Maybe even more.
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:39 am Post subject:
Hi shalmaneser. It’s good to get everyone’s views but we’re all pretty much on the same points. I have a little head start as I’ve already deleted the wiper but as you said, that was more of a visual thing. Exhaust, cats and manifolds were on the car before I bought it that’s an expensive hit dealt with though I don’t know of the make and weights on these.
The power steering is one I’m undecided on. I’ve already killed off the air con but the pumps still in place. It didn’t work so I got a non air con belt and I’ll remove the pump when I drop the engine for the other bits to be done.
Is there a belt available for this? As in air con and ps pump delete?
The radio? I’m pretty sure at this stage it’s coming out altogether. I never use it and my exhaust is fairly loud so it just ends up being too much noise and a sore head, also the sound is rubbish. I’d put it on par with something from the ‘70s.
I may have struck gold on the seats. I contacted a guy last night I knew from my subaru days. We had exchanged parts a time or 2 so I know he is a good guy. I asked what he had fitted in his impreza as they’re the last real bucket I had sat in. They were corbaeu something or other, can’t remover now but on google they’re about £420 a pair iirc. I was impressed with them and google says they’re 10.4kgs so a good weight saving, not the best but not £1000 either. Now for the golden bit, he has a pair of out of date seats in good condition, he needs to check make and models of those but I’ll get a cracking deal on them. He’s as trustworthy as they come and similar size to me so it’s a good start. It may never happen but at what he’s asking for them they’d be hard to pass up.
I’d have to make the rails but I’d say that’ll be easy as I work in a small engineering shop.
It’s not all about the weight though, the likes of the seats are to help with the whole sense of occasion. I’ll likely just sell the sports seats on as I’ve never really liked them.
Anyways, glad you on board with the idea and I’m keen to know more on the Opel ps pump _________________ #modified996mk1
Martin996RSR Nürburgring
Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Posts: 470
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject:
Hi Ned,
ELA will know what belt to use as he's gone for both power steering and aircon delete. I've removed my aircon pump no use a non-aricon belt that was cheap and esay to source. The pump was simple enough to remove without dropping the engine, I just removed the airbox. I'm very tempted to explore the Zafira pump, that seems like a great way to remove weight from where it's not wanted and add only a little more where it is needed.
On the subject of how lilttle weight you can notice - I noticed the difference in back-to-back drives with and without the rear wiper and motor. That was only 2kg or so. I know a few people will call BS on that, but I'm totally serious. I used to race single seaters where weight was everything, and I fly competition aerobatics these days and a few extra kilos of fuel in the plane makes a difference I can easily feel. The long and the short of it is this: If you're obsessive about feel and control then you'll notice tiny changes. If you're not, then the bigger the change needs to be before you notice it.
sim996 Monza
Joined: 05 Aug 2017 Posts: 233
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:10 pm Post subject:
Brake discs with alloy bells are worth a shout.
Good info on the power steering delete, i take it there is a thread somewhere? i'll have a search.
I wouldn't use a LWFW without a sprung centre clutch, it will be like an on/off switch and will ruin the driveability.
Not sure about the carrera clutch, but can you do a similar GT slave conversion? On my turbo the assisted clutch mechanism weighs a chunk
Centre Console delete, gives a bit more space too.
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject:
Hi Martin. I didn’t want to ask ela as he’s obviously going to market the stuff. I did see however an idler pulley from taret I think it was. Sleeps all over the place atm with the new arrival and so is my head. I think it was a replacement for the ps pump so that would mean that the non air con belt would do. I also saw a thread somewhere about the idea of gutting the original pump to be used simply as a pulley but I fell asleep
The weight thing is more than likely way over my head but I want to sort the best car I can On budget. This car likely won’t see day light next year. _________________ #modified996mk1
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:29 pm Post subject:
Hi sim996. Brake discs are a good shout indeed but mine are fairly fresh so I’ll hardly bother.
Not sure on info on here on the ps pump but it’s easily found on google.
The centre console will happen, just when I can get to it. Space is very tight in the garage and I can’t get the door open enough to get the seats out
Great to know that there’s a lot on here with a similar mindset to just improve their cars just a little in every way _________________ #modified996mk1
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject:
Forgot today Martin, I’ll be dropping the engine for a few reasons, the brake pipe that strikes the fear into everyone being the reason all this work started, clutch and flywheel, aos, clean up the chassis and what ever else I see. Going to go with solid rear sub frame bushes as well when I go through it.
The list only gets bigger _________________ #modified996mk1
dc2100k Newbie
Joined: 28 Oct 2019 Posts: 48
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:04 pm Post subject:
I think you can remove the Secondary Air Pump from above the nearside engine mount which should save a couple of kilos. You will need to stopper the hose that runs to it (or spend a few hours taking off the alternator, etc. and blank it off properly).
I'm not sure if removing this causes a CEL in a UK spec car but I know its not required here for emissions so will clear up the engine bay a little and it easily reversed.
I'm doing a similar weight loss exercise to you, not extreme and easily reversible is my aim. Spare wheel, jack, tools, CD changer, rear wiper, rear seats, SAI pump, lighter exhausts, smaller battery, etc. Might save 30-40kg total for not much cost or hassle! And I can put it back to standard in an afternoon if required.
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject:
Hi dc2100k
What is the secondary air pump? I’ll be dropping the engine so getting round the alternator and other bits won’t be any issue. I might go a little more extreme than yourself but it’s not gona be massive gains.
I have decided to give the power steering a go. Plenty of pumps on eBay but none want to ship to Northern Ireland with out the extra cash. Not the end of the world though. It seems getting the pipes off the rack is the biggest problem but I’ll at least have a go at it _________________ #modified996mk1
NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:00 pm Post subject:
I’ve just been out and had a look at some things in my car. The drivers seat is unbolted and I lifted it, yes it’s heavy but not massively. I can’t get it out to weigh it as I can’t the door open enough.
Also the carpet, I can’t see where there’s a few kgs in each piece never mind on the sponge alone.
My speakers are also minute Nokia ones. Probably why there’s no sound. Do I only have them in the rear quarter passenger compartments and dash?
Maybe I’m reading too much into this weight loss? _________________ #modified996mk1
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NedHan79 Hockenheim
Joined: 08 Nov 2018 Posts: 713
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:54 pm Post subject:
I’ve just been out and had a look at some things in my car. The drivers seat is unbolted and I lifted it, yes it’s heavy but not massively. I can’t get it out to weigh it as I can’t the door open enough.
Also the carpet, I can’t see where there’s a few kgs in each piece never mind on the sponge alone.
My speakers are also minute Nokia ones. Probably why there’s no sound. Do I only have them in the rear quarter passenger compartments and dash?
Maybe I’m reading too much into this weight loss? _________________ #modified996mk1
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Shalmaneser Trainee
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 67
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:23 am Post subject:
NedHan79 wrote:
Hi dc2100k
What is the secondary air pump? I’ll be dropping the engine so getting round the alternator and other bits won’t be any issue. I might go a little more extreme than yourself but it’s not gona be massive gains.
I have decided to give the power steering a go. Plenty of pumps on eBay but none want to ship to Northern Ireland with out the extra cash. Not the end of the world though. It seems getting the pipes off the rack is the biggest problem but I’ll at least have a go at it
Secondary air pump is basically a big air blower that blows fresh air into the exhaust during startup. It reduces emissions by helping to burn off the excess fuel in the exhaust when the car is just started. Common emissions equipment in a lot of cars of this era.
Martin996RSR Nürburgring
Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Posts: 470
Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:39 am Post subject:
We don't have a secondary air pump on UK market 996.1 cars.
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