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me&my997
Silverstone


Joined: 23 Mar 2019
Posts: 139
Location: Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballcock wrote:
Mine is / was a daily driver and never used oil ...

Just sayin!


120k ? Tiptronic ? Daily commuter Confused

Sympathy for you OP , must be like a stout kick in both knackers
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2989
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it’s been an interesting day!

The engine has been opened up, top and bottom and ....

Yes the crank bearings are showing signs of wear but nothing like the amount of copper in the oil!
This has come from the head, the oil scavenge pump has seized and has snapped the drive off the cam pulley.
Debris found its way into cylinder no. 1 and 2 so both pistons are damaged.


I’ve not heard of pump seizure like this before.
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‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
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Mac996t
Montreal


Joined: 26 Mar 2011
Posts: 503


2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have they been able to identify what was caught in the oil pump?
I've seen it a few times when its been part of a roller from the cam chain
 
  
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2989
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question Mac I’ll ask.

Sounds likely this is more frequent than I first suspected
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'96 Iris C2 vario manual coupe, Koni FZD's/M033's RSR's and HID's.
‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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Jamesx19
Nürburgring


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 475
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

90,000 miles. Oil analysis showed engine in good condition no significant wear. 2,000 miles later an oil change and look at the filter showed small flakes of copper.

No crank damage thankfully. Oil analysis is fine, but only shows the tiny tiny bits not bigger chunks apparently. I'd have thought that the two went hand in hand but there you go.
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2990


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamesx19 wrote:
90,000 miles. Oil analysis showed engine in good condition no significant wear. 2,000 miles later an oil change and look at the filter showed small flakes of copper.

No crank damage thankfully. Oil analysis is fine, but only shows the tiny tiny bits not bigger chunks apparently. I'd have thought that the two went hand in hand but there you go.


This is why i gave up doing the oil analysis, failure mode is nothing, then immediately loads....so you'd be very very very lucky to catch it at oil analysis time
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Griffter
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 359



PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballcock wrote:
Well it’s been an interesting day!

The engine has been opened up, top and bottom and ....

Yes the crank bearings are showing signs of wear but nothing like the amount of copper in the oil!
This has come from the head, the oil scavenge pump has seized and has snapped the drive off the cam pulley.
Debris found its way into cylinder no. 1 and 2 so both pistons are damaged.


I’ve not heard of pump seizure like this before.


I’ve only just started reading EVO again, but from what I gather is this what happened to Jethro’s 996?
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 7251
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you able to see from opening up the pump what has happened? I can imagine this happening if any debris gets in to the pump. There are no filters at all on the pump inlet.

MC
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this is one of the reasons we justified developing properly thought out, designed and tested larger engine alternatives.

Owners forced into a rebuild as a result of failures can spend a little more and get a whole lot more back while those wanting to keep the car and at mileages where they know they might fail (and cost more to fix because the crank has failed first) may not then be able to afford the extra of a crank AND larger engine - so we offer an incentive to have a preemptive rebuild.

For any technophiles interested in reading a long and very technical report on our oversized engines, I have made our internal report available to E-mail - just contact Sharon at admin@hartech.org and she will send you a simple and straightforward reply to agree to some simple protection for our intellectual property - and she will send it to you.

Please don't request it if you are an armchair TV addict wanting to watch a video full of things you probably know anyway. This is a proper technical article and you would probably need to know something about engines and physics to get the most benefit from it - but at least it is available and contains information explaining why these engines perform so very well and the improvements you might expect.

We have a similar (but even longer) one about the 4 main problems that afflict these engines - that allows you to make up your own minds about all the rubbish so many spill out on these forums - beware though you might need to take your time reading it all and have some headache pills to hand!


Baz
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2989
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m glad you spotted this thread Baz as you’ve been pointing to crank bearings for some time now, and unfairly taking flak for it (no good deed goes unpunished and all That!)
Just to be clear, tho my mechanics has confirmed that there IS wear in the main bearings some of them are through to the copper so I’m very happy that this work is getting done now.

@MC, the failed pump has been stripped and, of all things, a left hand thread M6 bolt was found jammed in there, causing the pump to seize. Heaven knows where this item came from, it certainly doesn’t seem to be a Porsche item, unless some of you guys have come across similar?
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‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2346



PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ballcock wrote:
of all things, a left hand thread M6 bolt was found jammed in there,


Wow! That'd certainly do a job on the pump.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17029
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be very interested to know where it came from.
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 8460
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been reading this with interest as I had a chain roller seize my pump some time ago causing a chain to snap, (or the other way around). I don't remember there being anything that's a left hand thread in the engine at all? Can only be a foreign object and can only be there by someone doing it or it being left in there if its previously been apart?
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Last edited by infrasilver on Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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coullstar
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 1626
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's such bad luck but at the same time as you say given incentive to rebuild.
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kurlykris
Magny-Cours


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 2548
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, I wonder where that came from, very puzzling/worrying nooo
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2989
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it’s the problem with 20 year old cars, and how many ‘expert’ bodgers have been tinkering around in the engine compartment.

Is the pump open to ingesting foreign objects?
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'96 Iris C2 vario manual coupe, Koni FZD's/M033's RSR's and HID's.
‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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Osh
Sepang


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 2985
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
141k daily slag here. Must admit, I'm not too fussed when the time comes and have money in the bank to cover it.


Amen to that...
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Rik b
Newbie


Joined: 14 Sep 2019
Posts: 42


2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s a shame...

I do believe these cars thrive on being driven. My old C2 Cab was sold at 175k and its still going. My now car is at 85k and really hope it lasts but if not ill find another one. Man needs Porsche
 
  
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bullet-proof_biscuit
Newbie


Joined: 10 Jun 2019
Posts: 30



PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Crank Bearings Reply with quote

DAVIDGT996 wrote:
Mine is just about to come back from the menders after spinning a bearing on no6 cylinder with 100k just up on the clock.

Had to source a secondhand crank in the end and it looked like mine already some form of rebuild before as it had strengthening rings/closed deck on the top of all bores.


Err that sounds like Hartech nickasil liners! Don't let your engine builder throw them away!!!!!
lol
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference between rings closing the deck and Hartech cylinders (that also close the deck).

The tops of the standard Lokasil cylinders are not strong enough to resist stretching oval with time. The earlier ones stretch more than later 3.6, 3.8 and Cayman S engines because the mixture of Silicon particles and its concentration was changed to make the later cylinders stiffer (although the downside was it involved larger silicon particles that can damage/score bores more than earlier ones, especially when combined with plastic coated pistons).

The best option is Hartech cylinders in which we machine the top recess and the cylinders have a top hat shape that is a precision fit inside the machined recess to support the cylinders. The extra diameter at the top of our cylinders also strengthens them to resist going oval from thrust loads

However if a customer simply cannot afford all 6 liners (and usually their damage will be on bank 2 fist) we can machine the other bank at the top and fit support rings in to at least prevent those cylinders distorting oval and cracking).

Some cylinder blocks have come into us for rebuild (after liner slippage) that have different liners of a different material and design, with a top hat (that look as if they fit into the top recess) but that doesn't fit because the recess was never machined and they don't prevent movement - just look as if the might.

Our cylinders replace the whole original cylinder and so the support at the top is beneficial, but many other providers only fit liners into part of the old cylinder and if it was not stiff enough to resist movement when it was full thickness, it is not going to if it is replaced with 2 half thickness liners inside each other - especially if they are not supported at the top.

Baz
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