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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 495



PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:57 pm    Post subject: 2 single turbo conversion Reply with quote

Has anyone here ever went down the single turbo route? Either professionally bought or diy?
I find the idea very interesting and reasonably simply to manufacture though the mapping obviously would need proper professional attention.

I know everyone will just say you should’ve bought a turbo and the engines not strong enough but humour me.

There’s big money kits online but what are the options?
Make some pipe work and find a suitably sized turbo. Likely go the water to air intercooler, sort the oil feed depending on where the turbos mounted. Then look at afm’s And what ever else crops up along with extra cooling for the water. Ecu choice is another but I know a mapper who would be keen to get at it.

Any ideas?
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kurlykris
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Joined: 30 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supercharging kits are readily available and much simpler/better IMHO Grin
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NedHan79
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but they’re mega money. I’ve no real intention to do anything on this but I tend to overthink things Confused
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T8
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been done on a Cayman

See --> http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=82375&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cayman+orange
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typically you go to a single large turbo for making big power - it's less convenient to package than two smaller ones, but if you're drag racing then who cares about packaging, you'll find somewhere to put whatever you need.

I suspect that two small turbos would push right past what the stock M96 can accept in terms of boost pressure before detonating like crazy and then putting a rod through the block, so in order to need a large single turbo you'd need to drop the compression ratio to ~8.5:1, which means pistons and rods.

Maybe if you converted the entire fuel system to methanol with the significant increase in octane that that would bring, but again - time and trouble to do that.

I think you'd get more bang for your buck from dropping weight out of a C2 than you would either turbo or supercharging it, especially as forced induction is likely to dramatically increase the heat that the stock cooling system is trying to deal with, which would likely mean the head on bank one taking a quick trip to cracksville.
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I’m well aware of the bigger problems involved with internals but it was more the idea of knocking up some pipe work and single turbo to be as cheap as possible.
I love the idea of an ls v8 but it’s supposed to run into mega bucks though some have claimed to do it for $4000 usd. If I thought I’d get good money for the 3.4 I’d have it away and take a stab at it but it’d take serious money.
Trying to cram in a couple of turbos also wouldn’t be easy

On a slightly different note, does anyone drag a 911 as its sole purpose?
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Martin996RSR
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are loads of 911 Turbos that have been developed as drag cars.

On the subject of turboing a C2, adding two turbos to it would not mean instant detonation issues. Poor engine management is what causes that. There are plenty of high compression turbo engines out there. The M96 head gaskets are renowned for being pretty strong, so can probably take a few PSI of boost. The weak point will almost certainly be the big end and crankshaft bearings, which don't last brilliantly even on a non-turboed M96.

The way to do it would be to figure out the plumbing side of things, then set up a new, programmable ECU, such as an Emerald or a Megasquirt. There would be problems to solve in terms of getting all the sensors and the Variocam stuff to work with the new ECU, but this wouldn't be breaking new ground, indeed, I think that Mistercorn on here is using an aftermarket ECU with his C4 project. You would probably also need slightly bigger injectors. Getting the instruments all working properly would also take some serious expertise and would probably be the hardest part of the systems side of the project. For cooling you could get custom made thicker cored ali radiators to go in the standard locations, and you could use an air/water intercooler set up, cooled by a central third radiator, which is a commonly available upgrade kit.

I'm sure you could turn the boost up to 6-9 PSI and still have a degree of reliability, provided the bearings I mentioned earlier are fresh.

I think the reason that people don't go to all this trouble is that by the time you've done all that, you'll have a 911 with a turbo on it, that's probably a bit less powerful than an original 911 Turbo, is a bit more fragile, and probably cost about as much, probably more so when you factor in the hundreds of hours of effort making it all work.

My point is this: Yes you absolutely could turbo convert a C2 and make it work and have a degree of reliability, but I don't think there is much point.
 
  
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 495



PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid points Martin.
The management sides not a major issue as I’ve been there before and have a good man to sort that end.
I think the only real way to more hp is to go the ls route. I deep in welding the sills up atm. Rather than patch them I’ve cut most of them out. Probably have to do the arches as well. Since I’m going to a bit of trouble to prolong its life, I’m looking more at a little more fun. The engines coming out so I’ll get a nosey round it. I love the idea of the v8 but couldn’t stomach the cost.
But if the 3.4 was going to fetch a few quid then that’s a different story
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MisterCorn
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Joined: 08 Jan 2011
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2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any point. For me, the NA engine is all about throttle response and revs. Better concentrating on those aspects and making the engine feel more 'alive' than in putting a turbo on it. That said, it would be a fun project. Lower the compression a bit, stronger rods and bolts, custom manifold and exhaust.

MC
 
  
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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
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Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin996RSR wrote:


The way to do it would be to figure out the plumbing side of things, then set up a new, programmable ECU, such as an Emerald or a Megasquirt. There would be problems to solve in terms of getting all the sensors and the Variocam stuff to work with the new ECU, but this wouldn't be breaking new ground, indeed, I think that Mistercorn on here is using an aftermarket ECU with his C4 project. You would probably also need slightly bigger injectors. Getting the instruments all working properly would also take some serious expertise and would probably be the hardest part of the systems side of the project.



On the early cars the instruments are basically dumb.10v square wave for vehicle and road speed. Standard NTC sensors for temperature. They might well be CAN bus based on the later cars, but I have the data format for that, so converting an aftermarket ECU serial or CAN output to the format the car wants to see is not beyond the wit of man. I wouldn't want to get in to talking with tiptronic modules or PDK though. Right. Whose in, when do we start? Grin

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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2275



PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'll contribute this to the project:


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NedHan79
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So where do you guys stand on an ls v8?
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Dammit
Indianapolis


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally (owning a car with a 5.4 litre VCool I'd rather put the money that an LS conversion would cost into the M96 - you'd end up with a very robust, very powerful flat six.
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Slippydiff
Nürburgring


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 393



PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NedHan79 wrote:
All valid points Martin.
The management sides not a major issue as I’ve been there before and have a good man to sort that end.
I think the only real way to more hp is to go the ls route. I deep in welding the sills up atm. Rather than patch them I’ve cut most of them out. Probably have to do the arches as well. Since I’m going to a bit of trouble to prolong its life, I’m looking more at a little more fun. The engines coming out so I’ll get a nosey round it. I love the idea of the v8 but couldn’t stomach the cost.
But if the 3.4 was going to fetch a few quid then that’s a different story



A quote attributed to Greg Brown from Precision Motor Werks, Anaheim, CA sums it up well, "What part of Porsche Racing did you think is going to be cheap, is it the the Porsche part, or is it the Racing part?"

I think you’ll find your “big horsepower Turbo’ed M96” brief could easily be substituted for “Porsche Racing” in the above statement ...

I can think of few Porsche engines worse suited to your proposed brief.
I’m a great advocate of the journey being more interesting/fun than the destination, but this takes masochistic behaviour to a whole new level !!

I look forward to hearing your trials and tribulations as you navigate your way along this boulder strewn path ...
 
  
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 495



PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slippydiff that’s sounds about right. It would end up mega money.
I’m quite happy to work at my own car though I could do with more space and a ramp. My garage is pretty tight but I can appreciate some people are doing it all on the street. Surprised

Once your at a certain level of performance everything is expensive but I see stuff for these cars, and although I can see the engineering and skill in the parts, the prices are eye watering. Most people buying a 996 today are buying on a budget and by my thinking, there should be a budget market for upgrades. Not everything has to be thousands.

I have got some great tips and ideas on here. There’s always a way round if your smart enough Question
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Martin996RSR
Spa-Francorchamps


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did some homework on the LS stuff last night. I think you could manage it for £10-12k or thereabouts and you would have a seriously mighty whip there. It makes a lot of sense, and there is the added bonus of sending the purists into palpitations. It also think it could be a pretty strong car on the second hand market, as there are plenty of standard cars out there to satisfy that need, but there isn't anything that sits between a C2 and a Turbo at the moment. I'd pay £20-25k all day long for a C2 with a 520hp V8 in it. The same money spent with Hartech on a 3.7 upgrade/rebuild would only net you in the region of 350hp.

(That's not to say a Hartech rebuild isn't worth it, they are the acknowledged experts in this field and I wouldn't consider a rebuild by anyone else. It's just that Ned is talking about doing a one-off that's a bit more left field)
 
  
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
Posts: 495



PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can’t really see the downside Martin. I had been looking at second hand engines but there’s not as much for sale as I’d thought. I’ve found an ls1 supposedly with a hotter cam and other bits with a t56 gearbox at reasonable money and I’d say the box would fetch decent money back leaving it a good price.
It’s the tuning potential afterwards that’s appealing. You could end up at mega hp. I’ve played the game before of chasing numbers and it’s never ending. A proper roller coaster of highs and lows but when it goes well, it’s a hell of a buzz
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coullstar
Albert Park


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Hp is what you want then LS it is. I think there is more to it than that though. I personally love the flat six noise and would do almost anything NOT to loose that. Ive never really liked V8 noise anyway though.

Also regarding the turbo, dont build what you can buy from factory.

The C2 chassis would need some upgrading to handle 400+ so your not necessarily making a better car by adding +200hp. Id argue is a fine balance as they are, a heap more power will upset that balance. Hence the Gt2 widowmaker name.
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NedHan79
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think about the v8, the more I like it. Cash flows not great atm but as I’ve already said, if someone wanted the 3.4 then I’d definitely consider it. The cars off the road for a while anyway for other work.

Just out of curiosity, what’s the 3.4 worth?
1998 car, 75’000 miles, full history either Porsche or specialist except for one stamp that was an ordinary garage. New denso iridium plugs and surefire coil packs less than 1000 miles ago. Full ss manifolds, what look like 200 cell cats and ss rear boxes. Unsure of make. Made 298hp on a rolling road recently. All runs very well and smoothly. Only downside is a slight tapet noise on cold start for around 30 seconds. Still in the car and can be heard running though I’m not keen on starting it on the axle stands but could soon sort that out.
Also I’ve a new Sachs clutch and genuine ems there for it too.

The engines fine but I just like to be greedy with the hp
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Martin996RSR
Spa-Francorchamps


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon an engine like that has to be worth at least £4k. Tappet noise on cold startup that goes away after a brief period of idling is totally normal.

Also, don't you need an LS3 rather than an LS1 for the ali block (iron on the LS1)?
 
  
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