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Shapes65
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Aug 2015
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject: Thinking about going from a 997.1 GT3 to a .2 Reply with quote

Love the car, and found it to be huge amounts of fun both on and off the track after owning it for a number of years. Now thinking that .2 might be worth considering.

Heard its meant to be a more usable car, most have front lift and as its newer I can run the Porsche extended warranty for longer.

Anyone have any experience of doing this move?

Just spotted this ad which is interesting - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-997/-10-2010-porsche-997-2-gt3-clubsport/9827673

Was wondering if the previous owner may be on here? Smile

Any thoughts much appreciated!
 
  
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freddie44
Albert Park


Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 1693
Location: Chelsea

2007 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sold. Was that you? seems a good price for a club sport... like 15k too good!?

If you can find a 997 Gen 1 club sport they are 85k and straight out the door

Comforts seem to be sitting around.
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Shapes65
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Aug 2015
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't realise it had sold. You're right, it does seem a bit too good to be true.

Interesting thoughts on the market.
 
  
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Slayer
Indianapolis


Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 2437
Location: United Kingdom


PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7 previous owners could be the reason it's cheaper 🤔
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Shapes65
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Aug 2015
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't spot that. That is quite a few!
 
  
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6381



PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Thinking about going from a 997.1 GT3 to a .2 Reply with quote

Shapes65 wrote:
Love the car, and found it to be huge amounts of fun both on and off the track after owning it for a number of years. Now thinking that .2 might be worth considering.

Heard its meant to be a more usable car, most have front lift and as its newer I can run the Porsche extended warranty for longer.

Anyone have any experience of doing this move?

Just spotted this ad which is interesting - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-997/-10-2010-porsche-997-2-gt3-clubsport/9827673

Was wondering if the previous owner may be on here? Smile

Any thoughts much appreciated!


My feelings over this upgrade are somewhat conflicted, it’s something I've thought about now and then

I think Richyd(?) made that jump a few years ago, might be worth PM’ing him to get his views if he doesn’t see this thread. Personally my thoughts are that the newer GT3 would be too similar to the current car to justify the extra outlay, unless I just fancied something “same same but different”. However having said that I’ve never driven a 997.2 GT3 on road or track so can’t really comment as to how similar the drive is or otherwise. I know NXI and Disco have decent experience of the 996.2 and 997.2 platforms, but don’t know anyone personally who jumped from 997.1 to 997.2 GT3. I’ve never really considered a 997.2 GT3 as a contender to replace my car, the only candidate would be a 997.2 GT3 RS, but unfortunately that ship sailed a few years ago when prices shot up. Actually, there was one particular 997.2 GT3 I was interested in a while ago but again pricing (and life in general) got in the way

I know the 997.2 GT3 produces more power and torque, and a number of other upgrades (was this the gen of GT3 where they brought in dynamic engine mounts as standard?). New improved interior and PCM too obviously, and I think folding buckets for the first time in a GT3. All plus-points, but the things that really put me off are the extra maintenance requirements for the centre locks which you can’t escape unless you switch for 5-bolts as with your current car, but that’s an expensive mod. As for the lift, I’ve only ever really heard bad things in terms of reliability, so wouldn’t go for a car with that given the choice. Having lived with my GT3 for a number of years I’m used now to driving around obstacles

In conclusion my own view was that I couldn’t justify a large outlay to upgrade my car for another one I would always think was too similar to what it replaced. And money no object I’d still not go for the 7.2 GT3, in that lottery win event I’d go to a 7.2 GT3 RS

Good luck with whatever you go with, and if you do end up swapping over make sure to keep us posted about your experiences Cool
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Shapes65
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Aug 2015
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You made some really good points there. It's a different car, though not that different. The money needed to upgrade is significant, and that's one of the big things that make me hesitant...is it really worth it. I can almost hear myself saying first world problems!

Interesting thoughts for the lift, as I saw that as one of the big pluses...it still makes me wince when I scrap the lip (almost every time I go out of my drive), maybe I should just grin and bear it and know I can replace the lip relatively cheaply.

I really appreciate your time and thoughts Roro, some more thinking to do, though right now I think I know which way I am leaning. Thank you!
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3379
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Roro has intimated, I have both 996.2 & 997.2 GT3s, albeit the 996 is far (very far!) from factory. I know what a standard 997.1 drives like & my .2 is absolutely standard so, fwiw, this is my take on the difference:

The .2 has a better interior, more up-to-date PCM3 (although it's a long way from what is acceptable in 2019) and, out of the box, is a more refined & accomplished driving experience on both road & track. It is one of the most rewarding Porsche GT cars to drive on the road IMO, having just the right mix of refinement & driver involvement / chassis feedback. The limits on the road are so ridiculously high that you're never really in danger of breaching them unless you're doing crazy speeds for the conditions.

My car has the Carrera GT fixed carbon buckets which are pretty narrow, meaning not everyone can fit in them comfortably. For me, they work perfectly & hold you far better that the folding buckets which are of limited use in a car with a cage anyway.

Bigger brakes mean that it's track ready and the PSM is better calibrated than the earlier generation. I have active engine mounts but I really couldn't say they add anything noticeable at all.

Centrelocks are a pain but investing in your own equipment means it's really only a minor inconvenience. I would avoid the axle lift like the plague, they are very prone to going wrong & can cost a fortune to fix.

The .2 is the better car, there's no doubt about that but the cost to switch will always be disproportionately high for what appear to be only incremental improvements. The thing is, they all add up to a significantly better package than the .1 was. I do think that the .2 (particularly the RS) is the best all around GT car Porsche ever made - every time I think I should sell mine because I don't use it enough, a drive is all it takes to dismiss the idea...
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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LaSource
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 472



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side note I have front lift on my 7.2 and due to the incline on my driveway, I could not do without it. Plus it is great reassurance to know you can travel to most places and be less worried about the bumps and inclines when you get there.

I've had four 7.2s with lift over the years and so far not one has let me down. I would not buy a car without it (unless it was no brainer priced).

The front lift can sometimes get stuck 'out of sync' and if you recognise the condition can easily be put back in sync. I can see how some people might not have recognised the condition and in previous years just assumed it had broken down or was unreliable.
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3379
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the combined miles you did in all of those cars was...?
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
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Disco
Estoril


Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3964
Location: Hertfordshire

2010 Porsche 997 GT3

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Thinking about going from a 997.1 GT3 to a .2 Reply with quote

Roro wrote:
Shapes65 wrote:
Love the car, and found it to be huge amounts of fun both on and off the track after owning it for a number of years. Now thinking that .2 might be worth considering.

Heard its meant to be a more usable car, most have front lift and as its newer I can run the Porsche extended warranty for longer.

Anyone have any experience of doing this move?

Just spotted this ad which is interesting - https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-997/-10-2010-porsche-997-2-gt3-clubsport/9827673

Was wondering if the previous owner may be on here? Smile

Any thoughts much appreciated!


My feelings over this upgrade are somewhat conflicted, it’s something I've thought about now and then

I think Richyd(?) made that jump a few years ago, might be worth PM’ing him to get his views if he doesn’t see this thread. Personally my thoughts are that the newer GT3 would be too similar to the current car to justify the extra outlay, unless I just fancied something “same same but different”. However having said that I’ve never driven a 997.2 GT3 on road or track so can’t really comment as to how similar the drive is or otherwise. I know NXI and Disco have decent experience of the 996.2 and 997.2 platforms, but don’t know anyone personally who jumped from 997.1 to 997.2 GT3. I’ve never really considered a 997.2 GT3 as a contender to replace my car, the only candidate would be a 997.2 GT3 RS, but unfortunately that ship sailed a few years ago when prices shot up. Actually, there was one particular 997.2 GT3 I was interested in a while ago but again pricing (and life in general) got in the way

I know the 997.2 GT3 produces more power and torque, and a number of other upgrades (was this the gen of GT3 where they brought in dynamic engine mounts as standard?). New improved interior and PCM too obviously, and I think folding buckets for the first time in a GT3. All plus-points, but the things that really put me off are the extra maintenance requirements for the centre locks which you can’t escape unless you switch for 5-bolts as with your current car, but that’s an expensive mod. As for the lift, I’ve only ever really heard bad things in terms of reliability, so wouldn’t go for a car with that given the choice. Having lived with my GT3 for a number of years I’m used now to driving around obstacles

In conclusion my own view was that I couldn’t justify a large outlay to upgrade my car for another one I would always think was too similar to what it replaced. And money no object I’d still not go for the 7.2 GT3, in that lottery win event I’d go to a 7.2 GT3 RS

Good luck with whatever you go with, and if you do end up swapping over make sure to keep us posted about your experiences Cool


Okay - the short part : is the gen 2 a better car? Yes. Is there a case to upgrade to it from a gen 1? Probably not for most people, but there might be for some.

The best way to analyse it is to go through the differences and see if they weigh up to a case for any given person.

First the engine. The 3.8 has more torque and a more linear power delivery than the 3.6. In daily driving this is discernibly nicer to drive but not in itself game changing. On track the only significant difference is that there are corners where you can get away without doing a 3rd to 2nd downshift. This is a nicer benefit than you might think (though of course there is nothing to stop you from stirring the cogs anyway if that is your thing). While peak power is a bit higher it takes the entire length of the main straight at the 'ring to out drag a gen 1 with the 3.6 and be clear of it (empirically proven) so the absolute performance case is at best marginal. In summary - you wouldn't want to go back the other way, but the upgrade case isn't really there.

The chassis next. The out of the box factory settings on the gen 2 are definitely better and it has a more positive turn in that you will love. However, if you send your factory geo gen 1 to someone like Centre Gravity they can make it drive just like a gen 2 for you, so this part of the story is a red herring. The next thing is that the gen 2 has stability control. While a nice safety net in general road driving, once you are up to speed with the car on track you will really want to turn that off (along with the traction control that the gen 1 also has). You might leave it on in the wet, but in the dry if you are hitting the brakes hard and trailing into your turns then the driver aids impede turn-in and obliterate your rear brakes in unnaturally short order. Dynamic engine mounts were standard only on the RS and optional on the normal GT3 - you won't miss them and it is potentially something else to go wrong (even though it certainly doesn't have any reputation for that at this point). Which brings us to...

Nose lift. This was of course optional and would normally considered to be a really good thing to have. Unless it breaks. And it does. At one point when the cars were only a few years old everybody that I'd met with lift had had it fail. All were fixed under warranty, but the invoice cost to the Porsche warranty department was thousands in each case. Anyone who was there the day where Nick W was on the phone to his OPC pulling fuses (from the rear under-carpet fuse box) to get the nose to go down and stay there in the Nurburgring car park to avoid having to write off some expensive track time will lean back and ponder how much they really can't tolerate the sound of the flexible plastic lip grounding (especially given how by Porsche standards it is a pretty reasonably priced part). Now there is a caveat that at that time everyone that I'd met with lift had extensively tracked it so that may be a variable (there isn't a shortage of people out there with it who haven't had any issues) so this is a your-mileage-may-vary story, but it is a consideration worth making. Personally I am glad that my 3.8 Clubsport doesn't have it.

The wheels. Ah yes : the wheels. They are lovely. They are also a bit of a pain in the backside. Originally the centre locks were to be tightened to 450Nm, but there were some issues so there was a recall and they were then increased to 500Nm. But still there were failures, so Porsche then said 600Nm and issued a schedule for replacement of various components (hubs, bearings, uprights, wheel nuts) depending upon the amount of track mileage that the car had done. Road use - non issue, but once you have done enough track miles you are supposed to start replacing parts. Naturally nobody out there has the faintest idea how many track miles their car has done as until the technical bulletin went out nobody had been counting. Thus if buying for the track you would probably be pragmatic and just get a gen 1 and forget about all of that. Then there is the other thing with the wheels : getting them on and off. If you own a 4' torque wrench that goes well over 600Nm or a suitable torque multiplier and familiarise yourself with the procedure then it isn't as problematic as all that. If however you don't and simply get other people to do things like that then suddenly the only place that can swap wheels or change tyres are OPCs or decent independent Porsche specialists. Forget about your local tyre place or mobile fitters - they can't do them, nor should they.

Then there is the interior. Well, this part at least is a clear win for the Gen 2. Especially if it has the folding buckets which fit a much broader range of body sizes than the CGT style fixed buckets (which were the only bucket option on the Gen 1). They are very nearly as good as the 996 buckets (in my opinion those are still the best that I have ever sat in). The steering wheel is also a bit nicer, the dashboard has a lot more black in place of all that silver-grey paint and the PCM system has a much better nav and options for bluetooth hands free phone and iPod/iPhone connectivity (though if you want bluetooth music you will still have to get an aftermarket widget). I am not saying that there is anything fundamentally unpleasant about the gen 1, but to me the gen 2 is a tangibly nicer place to be.

Just to put a footnote of opinion, for me an upgrade from a 996 to a 997.2 made complete sense. An upgrade from a 996 to a 997.1 didn't and I don't think that a 997.1 to 997.2 would either. but as ever - you may find differently. Thumb
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Black 997 GT3 3.8 CS - Acquired for the 2012 season and beyond
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LaSource
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 472



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
And the combined miles you did in all of those cars was...?


More than you have done in yours Very Happy
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3379
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaSource wrote:
NXI20 wrote:
And the combined miles you did in all of those cars was...?


More than you have done in yours Very Happy


.. which doesn't have a dodgy lift option to go wrong anyway Floor
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Nick

2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
1995 993 GT2 recreation in Polar Silver
2010 GT3 CS in Riviera Blue Smile
1978 Carrera SC in Red (for sale)
 
  
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LaSource
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 472



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe early issues were ironed out in the early cars - a bit like the chocolate 7.2 clutches.

But seriously I have zero reliability concerns with the lift. Though the car does have warranty in case something comes up.
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997 GT3 RS 3.8 Grey/Red
996 GT3 Mk2 Clubsport Guards Red
KTM XBOW RR Superlight Spec
BMW E39 M5, BMW E46 M3
Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE

Previous:
981 GT4 3.8 Clubsport
2x 997 GT3 RS 4.0 White and White
2x 997 GT3 RS 3.8 RHD and LHD
2x 996 GT3 RS Blue and Red
2x 996 GT3 Mk2 Clubsport and Comfort
 
  
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Roro
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 6381



PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shapes65 wrote:
You made some really good points there. It's a different car, though not that different. The money needed to upgrade is significant, and that's one of the big things that make me hesitant...is it really worth it. I can almost hear myself saying first world problems!

Interesting thoughts for the lift, as I saw that as one of the big pluses...it still makes me wince when I scrap the lip (almost every time I go out of my drive), maybe I should just grin and bear it and know I can replace the lip relatively cheaply.

I really appreciate your time and thoughts Roro, some more thinking to do, though right now I think I know which way I am leaning. Thank you!


No worries at all, looks like the rest of the GT cavalry arrived as well Grin some great info on this thread

I don’t think you’ll find any argument from anyone here that the 7.2 is the better all round car than the 7.1, but that’s to be expected, each new GT car is generally better than the one before it (ignoring the 991.1 which seemed a bit of a backward step in a couple of areas for the general GT3 crowd at the time). Some would baulk at the idea of the 7.1 being better than the 6.1/2, but personally I still can’t deal with the headlamps on the 996 cars(!)

Another thing worth mentioning is that not throwing cash at upgrading to a 7.2 has kind of made me feel ok about modding my car, which has been a lot of fun. Hence the gold OZ’s, Alcantara interior retrim, Momo Cup steering wheel and PCM cubby shelf delete to name a few things. Oh, and the cage and Recaro’s, but if you have a Clubsport that’s not relevant to you. At some point I may experiment with a ducktail, but that’s not a priority. So it’s actually been a very long time since I last thought about switching to a 7.2 GT3 (although I do still toy with the idea of switching to a 7.2 RS now and then, but realistically that’s several thousand light years away...)
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My turn Floor

I think if you were entering the market for the first time and could afford it go for the .2. If not save your money.

That’s a précis of all the previous excellent and informative posts by the way Laughing
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP just of of interest what do you think the exchange cost would be, £30 - 40K Question
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Shapes65
Silverstone


Joined: 13 Aug 2015
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some really informative and insightful posts there guys. Smile

I think I'd be needing to put £30K in to move to a decent .2, which seems like a lot of money for what I'd gain.

My car was already setup by Centre of Gravity to be more neutral and has a feel that I love when on the limit (on the track).

All of this adds up to it really not worth stretching to right now. I can replace the front lip when it gets worn, and its not the end of the world if I don't have Porsche warranty (when it can't taken out due to car age)....I think that itch is sorted for now.

Many thanks all!
 
  
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 463



PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good thread. It's something I've pondered on occasion.

I think the comments from Disco and Senoj pretty much end the argument for me.

When you consider an approximate upgrade cost of £30k, you can get some seriously interesting and useful modifications done for that money.
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
Good thread. It's something I've pondered on occasion.

I think the comments from Disco and Senoj pretty much end the argument for me.

When you consider an approximate upgrade cost of £30k, you can get some seriously interesting and useful modifications done for that money.


Or a nice M car or something similar, thought about this a few times and always ended sticking with what I’ve got. Now a 991.2 would be worth the extra £80k or may be not Question
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