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Wattso
Newbie


Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Location: London / Cheshire


PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HSC911 wrote:
Wattso wrote:
Pleased to say the car is now in my possession. Full ownership thread to follow Very Happy




Still waiting... Grin

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It’s coming! Too busy driving it! thumbsup
 
  
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DucatiRob
Kyalami


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1783
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wattso wrote:
HSC911 wrote:
Wattso wrote:
Pleased to say the car is now in my possession. Full ownership thread to follow Very Happy




Still waiting... Grin

Thumb


It’s coming! Too busy driving it! thumbsup


Congrats
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DucatiRob
Kyalami


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
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Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver wrote:
Pathetic


nooo
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a1butch
Trainee


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 53
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baz, can you provide more analysis into why you think these bores are not suffering from 'score'.
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17061
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can - because they don't look scored.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17061
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob wrote:
Hertsdriver wrote:
Pathetic


nooo


I thought the same about his ppi to.
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a1butch
Trainee


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 53
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
I can - because they don't look scored.


Thanks for the value add, but I was asking the expert unless you can qualify your view?
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 17061
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been trained by Baz Wink
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6382
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
I've been trained by Baz Wink
Floor
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jonttt
Long Beach


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 6382
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW (probably not a moot I know) I originally clicked on this thread when it first started as I thought (eh up, are Hartech’s rebuild not as good as theya re supposed the be ?”. I then ignored the thread once I saw the pics but came back when I saw the activity on it. OP your original thread title was massively misleading and the fact you could not see that I find remarkable. I simply don’t understand your stance on this other than you chose not to buy a car in all probability on bad advise you had paid for. I would be more annoyed with the people who gave you that advice and look for some of the money back rather than defend an at best badly worded thread title nooo

To then imply the mods are pathetic in editing the thread title when you obviously refused to do so just does not make sense to me, I simply can;t figure out your motivation, all rather strange Question
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7251
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had the rebuild and comments been from anyone other than Baz would we all have been so forgiving in our assessment?
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FZP
Estoril


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3813
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert, but after 5 years of borescore threads and Hartech's input, I've managed to put some tidbits in my memory bank. When OP put up those pics, I was dubious as to whether that was scoring or just marks, but as I'm no expert, I kept my quiet. In the mean time, a few others saw the pics came to a similar conclusion as I did and noted/questioned it. Then to have the person who is, as far as I can tell, the #1 Porsche engine builder in the country, say the same. It's now an open and shut case of misdiagnosis by a "Porsche Specialist"
The mods have absolutely done the right thing by changing the headline as you were unwilling to. There are countless threads where bad news is discussed on here and are allowed to run, so long as it's justified. The mods do a great job on maintaining this ecosystem with just and fair rule, so to say it's pathetic is a reflection on you rather than the mods.
The disappointing thing is it wasnt the OP who made the mistake, but his specialist and he's cut up with this forum. I'd be annoyed at the specialist for missing out on what seems like a good car. Wattso seems to agree as he's parted with his hard earned and us enjoying it.
Good luck with your search, and hope if you're lucky enough to stumble upon another Hartech rebuild, that you get someone with the correct knowledge to interpret the information
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Last edited by FZP on Sun May 12, 2019 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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nigel99
Barcelona


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1352
Location: Berkshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel for the OP as his intentions for the post were to advise purchaser's not to assume that a rebuilt engine doesn't require a PPI and borescope. This was based on professional advice paid for by the OP.

Who was the specialist that performed the PPI? It would be beneficial to the balance of this thread to have their interpretation of the images.
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toobusy
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Rutland - UK


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
I've been trained by Baz Wink


Very Happy
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Albionmuz
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Posts: 637
Location: West Sussex


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nigel99 wrote:
I feel for the OP as his intentions for the post were to advise purchaser's not to assume that a rebuilt engine doesn't require a PPI and borescope. This was based on professional advice paid for by the OP.

Who was the specialist that performed the PPI? It would be beneficial to the balance of this thread to have their interpretation of the images.


Hmm, not convinced, the OP basically raised questions about the quality of a Hartech rebuild and potentially left the owner of the car out to dry.

Whatever the intentions it tarred two in one stroke
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Wattso
Newbie


Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Location: London / Cheshire


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see both sides of the argument here. I don't believe that OP started this thread with the intention damage the reputation of Hartech. I think the primary mistake here is the apparent misdiagnosis by the PPI specialist.

However when a world expert like Baz turns up and, based with the evidence in front of him, states they don't think it's bore scoring you have to value that opinion above all else, I certainly did as i bought the car!

Had Baz not have commented I would absolutely not have purchased this car.

I'll shortly be booking it in with Hartech for a "Gold Major" service so look forward to meeting Baz in person bye

I'll also stop teasing this new ownership thread and create it today! Very Happy
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all down to microscopic measurements of surfaces.

Under huge magnification a cylinder bore in the vertical axis plane looks like a saw tooth and so does the surface of the ring that touches the bore.

Even though our honed bores are around 10 times more round than a new Porsche bore (which we have in stock on a number of new blocks), the surface still under magnification is uneven circumferentially

When the engine is first run the minute high spots on the ring touch the minute high spots of the bore where the point of contact is like the tip of a saw blade tooth and all the forces on the ring (from combustion) push the load onto a very small area and because load over area is high it polishes the surface in vertical lines.

After a minute or two running the sharp points on both the ring and bore are microscopically flattened and the load is now spread over a much wider area and the load/unit area is not sufficient to polish the bore any more.

The result is a much better fitting rings to bore contact surface than you will get from any other combination providing good compression and long life but leaving those small polished marks in the cylinder that have no measurable depth but are visible.

this process is what all engines and all parts in engines undergo during the "running in period" and it is what it is all about.

Bore scoring results in deep grooves that are clearly different.

I must admit that when the Lokasil original surface starts to release silicon particles that the piston rubs up and down the bore to initially lightly score it - the result can look similar to polishing - but those of us familiar with the differences can detect it using our own camera (but not others) and it is obvious when it gets worse.

The fact that the engine was still running OK should have been a clue.

For the original poster to refuse to edit the topic heading to something more non comital indicates to me that there was another influence on the reasons for the post in the first place and should demonstrate how powerful the Internet can be in damaging legitimate businesses interests when that is intentional.

Regular readers will notice that we do not list competitors names or refer to them in our posts even though on many occasions it would have been easy to do so - but it does leave us vulnerable at times like this.

Really grateful for such support from so many others - thanks a lot guys!

Baz
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nigel99
Barcelona


Joined: 16 Jul 2015
Posts: 1352
Location: Berkshire

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Baz. I'm a bit too thick to understand a lot of the technical aspects to bore scoring and other issues, but I appreciate that you're always on hand to offer your view and expert opinion. You're a credit to this site. Thank you.
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Wattso
Newbie


Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 35
Location: London / Cheshire


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nigel99 wrote:
Thanks Baz. I'm a bit too thick to understand a lot of the technical aspects to bore scoring and other issues, but I appreciate that you're always on hand to offer your view and expert opinion. You're a credit to this site. Thank you.


Seconded!
 
  
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kas750
Shanghai


Joined: 31 Mar 2013
Posts: 4570
Location: Chorley lancashire

2006 Porsche 911

PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kas750 wrote:
Hertsdriver wrote:
RXBoxster wrote:
they wouldn't have overbored it... as oversized pistons arn't available, and aluminium cylinders either need re-coating in nikasil, or steel liners fitting.


Apologies you are correct, the invoice states:
"Carry out repair to bare crankcase
Replace cylinder 4/5/6 and machine cylinder to piston
Check roundness of cylinders 1/2/3 and install top brace
check existing pistons and match to new"

3 new OEM pistons are listed in the bill.

I believe the guy has part ex'd the car against an M5 so no doubt it will make its way back into the system....



It may be helpful to edit your original post as some may take your opening post and run in the wrong direction with it.


Like I said nooo
 
  
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