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nomadic
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Joined: 23 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
I've just put a deposit on a 54 plate black C2S with Fuchs alloys Very Happy wack


Good work - it looked clean - I was looking at this one, but have now been slowly tempted to a gen 2! Enjoy!
 
  
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Alex
Le Mans
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Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was refering to the OPs car Grin

The cab I was looking at.......well, the seller couldn't even bother responding to my email and its now gone.
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Pazuzu
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Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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Location: Near Ashford, Kent


PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been watching but feel I can chip in now Baz has commented. This is my car.

The engine rebuild was paid for by Warrantywise hence not getting the full treatment an owner would perhaps pay for.

When I spoke to the chap who did the borescope he said there was some scoring there but he wouldn't give an opinion on severity.

This post is the first time I've seen photos.

The car doesn't use much oil.

There is no sound of piston slap.

The car was rebuilt 5 years and 30,000 miles ago.

I should say that the car runs beautifully and pulls really strongly - I personally have found it very hard to corroborate the report with the way it drives but I am not a mechanic.

I completely understand why Justin did not want to proceed with the purchase, no problem there at all. I'm also grateful to all the posters for their opinions.

Last edited by Pazuzu on Sat May 11, 2019 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Hertsdriver
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Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 437
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, the images posted were taken on a camera phone of the screen of the snap on scope being held up by the tech, so they are a photo of a screen thats then been compressed to a Jpg...
Now that may make them look better or worse than they really are, but all I (and the current owner) can go on is the advice from the Porsche specialist. Much as I applaud the knoweledge of everyone on here who has given their opinion on the images. If I bought it and it did turn out to be 'not good' I doubt that anybody here would help me chip in to the engine rebuild fund, so all I can reasonably do is discuss it with the current owner and go from there Thumb
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Alex
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I'd be doing some serious talking with Hartech around the actual jpegs, what work was carried out and what advice they can offer.........then buy the car before it gets snapped up.
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MarkGolf
Imola


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I was expecting to see scored bores.. Having an inspection by someone that knows would be best, to me, they don't look bad.
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chicb
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Joined: 01 Jun 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pazuzu, after all these posts of, is it/isn't it borescored, the chances of a quick sale I would suspect is fairly low. Throwing in my 2 pence worth, I would take it to Hartech for a borescore check & get their results in writing with the photographs. If it turns out fine, you basically have an unofficial guarantee from a well respected engine builder to show anyone looking at the car with no ifs, buts, maybes. Should the results show it is scored at least you can then decide what you want to do.
Its amazing how perhaps a good cars condition can be shredded by a few keyboard taps. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing comes to mind. Best luck anyway.
 
  
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
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Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chicb wrote:
Pazuzu, after all these posts of, is it/isn't it borescored, the chances of a quick sale I would suspect is fairly low. Throwing in my 2 pence worth, I would take it to Hartech for a borescore check & get their results in writing with the photographs. If it turns out fine, you basically have an unofficial guarantee from a well respected engine builder to show anyone looking at the car with no ifs, buts, maybes. Should the results show it is scored at least you can then decide what you want to do.
Its amazing how perhaps a good cars condition can be shredded by a few keyboard taps. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing comes to mind. Best luck anyway.


It isnt anything to do with the keyboard taps, it was the advice from a well known and I gather quite well respected Porsche specialist.
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chicb
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going by the forty odd replies, no one seems to know if its scored or not. What I was saying for the owners piece of mind was to have it checked by probably the best engine builder in the country.
 
  
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a1butch
Trainee


Joined: 06 Dec 2013
Posts: 53
Location: Colchester


PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:
Impressed with the knowledge many of you have picked up over the recent years.

Pictures are indeed hard to interpret but none of them look like scoring to me.

Although our web site contains a lot of historical information about t he subject it is several years out of date and so I have recently written updates on the bore scoring issue that will soon replace the old text and will answer all of the questions raised.

There is too much involved to reproduce here but just to correct one thing - there are 4 repair modes, new crankcases with the same potential failure Lokasil bores, iron liners (of which we have many that subsequently failed and the new report explains why), plating onto the scored cylinder and replacement with alloy Nikasil liners (of which there are 2 versions on the market and ours is different than the other because it also d=secures the liner at the top and results in it becoming a closed deck method which is generally recognised as superior). Several thousand have been replaced and over a thousand engines rebuilt by us this way without issue.

However when a customer order is accepted for a bore score we cannot insist on all 6 being replaced although (as this post demonstrates) for those unable or unwilling to pay for all 6 use our less expensive alternative - it still has worked well for tens of thousands of miles.

It is always easy for miss-information to discredit or harm suppliers unfairly and as in this case I do wish those responsible would have the courtesy to contact us to find out the full story before deciding to post their opinions.

I hope the new report on bore scoring will help clear u p a lot of the always present confusion - due in probably 3 - 4 weeks time.

Baz


If this reply doesn't offer enough comfort the only logical step is for the seller to ask Hartech to inspect the bores in the flesh.
 
  
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bazhart
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Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not Quite "no one knows?" I have stated my opinion - thank you!

The nearest I can get to an analogy is a windscreen with marks where the rubber blades have put minutely small dulling to the otherwise shiny surface that can be seen sometimes like a smear over the surface.

If you measure an original Lokasil bore after say 80K you may find it is around 6 or 8 thou oval and if you measure it at 10 degree intervals round the bore there will be lots of peaks and troughs but because the bore is more dull it is not obvious to the naked eye or a boroscope.

Similarly iron liners will have little ovality but be worn in patches slightly but not show.

Nikasil in contrast is harder and will retain a superb roundness for years. On the odd occasion when a racing version has blown a big end or dropped a valve - we have almost always been able to recover the engine with the original Nikasil cylinders - the surface is that good.

However it is difficult to match ring material to it. The 911 SC 3 litre and 3.2 Carrera models had Nikasil bores and less "polish marks" but the rings were worn down to a point at the ends after around 70K while the compression dropped at low revs making the engines . run at low power until the camshafts kicked in with better timing where they designed the power band.

The M96/7 engines have rings that will last for at least double that mileage but will polish mark cylinders with absolutely no detriment to the running of the car.

It is really unfortunate that the public - aware of the problems - and rightly wanting boroscope reports on their cars (or before buying) and mechanics and engineers do not understand the differences between polish marks and scoring (not really their fault though).

Nikasil is applied a few thousandths of an inch thick and if it ever scored there would be deep obvious grooves in the surface. Lokasil scored would bee even deeper grooves and usually o ver a wider width.

The reports from the owner demonstrate that the engine was working perfectly - low oil consumption and good power after many years and tens of thousands of miles and could have been presented as confirmation of the good work we do for our customers rather than initially appearing to do the opposite. It could have said "this engine has done 30K and lasted 5 years after a partial Hartech spec rebuild (due to the warranty company) and is still going strong" instead of casting doubt on the well proven and supported solution.

THat is why I appeal for anyone suspecting . problems with our products or workmanship to please at least contact us before making up their own minds first, posting on that basis and finding out a more accurate understanding afterwards.

The Internet can be a tough place anyway at the best of times and I feel the good work we do for our customers deserves a little more respect than we sometimes read about.

Baz
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FZP
Estoril


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Agree
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jl-c
Monza


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
Posts: 224
Location: Shropshire


PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree Agree
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Agree
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
Posts: 437
Location: Hertfordshire/London

2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:
Not Quite "no one knows?" I have stated my opinion - thank you!

The nearest I can get to an analogy is a windscreen with marks where the rubber blades have put minutely small dulling to the otherwise shiny surface that can be seen sometimes like a smear over the surface.

If you measure an original Lokasil bore after say 80K you may find it is around 6 or 8 thou oval and if you measure it at 10 degree intervals round the bore there will be lots of peaks and troughs but because the bore is more dull it is not obvious to the naked eye or a boroscope.

Similarly iron liners will have little ovality but be worn in patches slightly but not show.

Nikasil in contrast is harder and will retain a superb roundness for years. On the odd occasion when a racing version has blown a big end or dropped a valve - we have almost always been able to recover the engine with the original Nikasil cylinders - the surface is that good.

However it is difficult to match ring material to it. The 911 SC 3 litre and 3.2 Carrera models had Nikasil bores and less "polish marks" but the rings were worn down to a point at the ends after around 70K while the compression dropped at low revs making the engines . run at low power until the camshafts kicked in with better timing where they designed the power band.

The M96/7 engines have rings that will last for at least double that mileage but will polish mark cylinders with absolutely no detriment to the running of the car.

It is really unfortunate that the public - aware of the problems - and rightly wanting boroscope reports on their cars (or before buying) and mechanics and engineers do not understand the differences between polish marks and scoring (not really their fault though).

Nikasil is applied a few thousandths of an inch thick and if it ever scored there would be deep obvious grooves in the surface. Lokasil scored would bee even deeper grooves and usually o ver a wider width.

The reports from the owner demonstrate that the engine was working perfectly - low oil consumption and good power after many years and tens of thousands of miles and could have been presented as confirmation of the good work we do for our customers rather than initially appearing to do the opposite. It could have said "this engine has done 30K and lasted 5 years after a partial Hartech spec rebuild (due to the warranty company) and is still going strong" instead of casting doubt on the well proven and supported solution.

That is why I appeal for anyone suspecting . problems with our products or workmanship to please at least contact us before making up their own minds first, posting on that basis and finding out a more accurate understanding afterwards.

The Internet can be a tough place anyway at the best of times and I feel the good work we do for our customers deserves a little more respect than we sometimes read about.

Baz


Hi Baz,

I think you may have misread the thread or the intended meaning of the thread, and as the original poster I feel I should clarify for you.

Firstly, there is nothing in my original post that you should feel the need to be concerned on. I did not at any time pour scorn on the name of your company, or your standards. The actual phrase I used was:

"So i guess this is just a word of warning to anyone else out there who sees a car advertised as having a Hartech rebuild and thinks that will be a replacement of a proper PPI with a borescope then think again and make sure you insist on the check. And check the invoice to see exactly what has been done in the process of the engine rebuild."

I have been looking at 996 and 997's for a while and i have spoken to more than one owner who insisted that as their car has 'had a rebuild from Hartech' there was no need for a borescope.. This is why I felt a thread detailing my experience would be a good thing for all.

I paid out for a PPI inspection including borecope for a car I was interested in buying. I had this work carried out at a well respected Porsche specialist (LaRose Porsche in Kent) and was advised that there was scoring to all 6 cylinders. I posted up the pictures with the clarification that they are images taken by a phone camera of the snap on scope screen, ie a picture of a picture of a picture compressed to a JPEG and shown on a computer screen.
If you are stating categorically that in your opinion based on those images that this car does not suffer from borescoring then I am sure that the original owner will be very happy, as he can print off this thread and use it as proof of your expert opinion that this car is not a worry. Of course it contradicts the opinion of the people that carried out the PPI (and there was more than just the engine to consider in that report...), and they have the benefit of seeing the actual images directly from the scope, rather than what you have which is a picture of a picture of a picture compressed to a JPEG and displayed on a computer screen.
I will leave it for you to decide if you think it is reasonable and ethical to use a thread on a forum to call another specialists professional opinion into question, you could of course contact them directly to discuss this yourself if you feel that you need to as their name is mentioned in the first post of this thread.

The car has done over 100k. The engine was rebuilt by yourselves in 2015 (at approx 70k from memory) and had one bank repaired, this bank therefore has only done 30-35k in 5 years. The other bank however has done the full 100k. As I had already stated earlier in the thread, the car has a rather large puff of bluey coloured smoke (with the smell of oil) on start up. This was why I specifically wanted a borescope done, and why I personally did not question the opinion of the company I paid to carry it out when they advised to walk away from the car.

Hope that helps
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Alex
Le Mans
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Narrow escape - bore scored Hartech rebuilt 'S' engine

Question
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
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2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Narrow escape - bore scored Hartech rebuilt 'S' engine

Question


Fairly damning
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Hertsdriver
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2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
Alex wrote:
Narrow escape - bore scored Hartech rebuilt 'S' engine

Question


Fairly damning


Or completely factual.
But regardless there is no insinuation of any wrong doing on the part of Hartech in that sentence that I can see?
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jl-c
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Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver wrote:
infrasilver wrote:
Alex wrote:
Narrow escape - bore scored Hartech rebuilt 'S' engine

Question


Fairly damning


Or completely factual.
But regardless there is no insinuation of any wrong doing on the part of Hartech in that sentence that I can see?


Then we see differently, to me there is huge insinuation of blame.
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Wattso
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Joined: 31 Mar 2014
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Location: London / Cheshire


PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hertsdriver - you have a PM thumbsup
 
  
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