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spongebob squarepants
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Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Where's the scored ones?


The last one perhaps? but surely not the others Dont know
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ragpicker
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last one appears to have gone through the cross-hatching which would suggest scoring to me (the untrained eye). The cross hatching is intact on all the others suggesting the marks are more superficial. Dont know

Interesting thread.
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Hertsdriver
Nürburgring


Joined: 12 Nov 2018
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2004 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Where's the scored ones?

Are you disputing the scoring in the images? Would you have bought it?
I appreciate it isn’t as catastrophic as some other Images I’ve seen, but it wasn’t one I was personally inclined to buy given I want to keep this car.
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Chris_in_the_UK
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with looking at pics like this is that most people are not experienced in interpreting what they are looking at (I include myself in this) and it's easy to think the worst.

I would be interested to hear Baz's comments TBH.
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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say the last photo is the only concern, others look mint. But even that last is debatable.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
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2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
The problem with looking at pics like this is that most people are not experienced in interpreting what they are looking at (I include myself in this) and it's easy to think the worst.

I would be interested to hear Baz's comments TBH.


Yeah

There were some good pics I think on the Bore Score thread, which Baz posted and showed the difference between scoring and normal wear.
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Kryton
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to Baz's post, however, he can only carry out work that was requested despite being (possibly) told more was required?
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DucatiRob
Kyalami


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
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Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
The problem with looking at pics like this is that most people are not experienced in interpreting what they are looking at (I include myself in this) and it's easy to think the worst.

I would be interested to hear Baz's comments TBH.


Yeah

There were some good pics I think on the Bore Score thread, which Baz posted and showed the difference between scoring and normal wear.


Agree! It would be good to hear what Baz has to say on this. I am no expert but I have pics of my own scored bores from a few years ago and spent some time with a scope peering into the bores to satisfy myself before investing in a rebuild!

Pics 3 & 4 do look similar to the pics i have of the my scored bores, the other pics look much more like normal wear/scuff marks you would expect to see on perfectly healthy Nikasil cylinders.

Larose Porsche diagnosing all six bores scored suggests they don't understand well enough what they are looking at! Might be worth editing the original post Question
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DucatiRob
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really hard to understand why anyone would go to the expense of having a Hartech rebuild and only having 3 cylinders done!
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segart
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Joined: 28 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Where's the scored ones?
Grin get to the point!!!
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Clanky
Österreich


Joined: 24 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From experience, its hard to see how bad it is from a picture.
I've had engines opened & to me, real bore scoring is when your finger nail picks up on it.

On the other hand, I've had a head off an old Audi S2 5 cyl head with 85k miles on it & the cross hatching was immaculate on it.

At a guess, I'd say that those in the pics certainly are beginning to show some signs of wear if not actual scoring.
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infrasilver
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baz would usually refer to them as polish marks, it has been said many times before that a borescope needs to be done by someone that knows what they are looking at or it is just a waste of money.

There have even been stories of people shelling out for a full rebuild on the say so of someone not qualified to make the call as to whether there is scoring or not.
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tom_nieto
Monza


Joined: 08 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me only file 1 and file 5 look anywhere near badly marked and even then it’s really hard to tell how superficial it is. Oil consumption and funny noises would be more concerning.

You can either use this as a bargaining chip to get some cash off, or run away and not consider a 997.1 again. I think a lot of borescope images will show this won’t they?
 
  
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kurlykris
Magny-Cours


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I`m not convinced that that is a borescored engine either, would be nice to know which photo is which cylinder 1-6 nooo

I used a borrowed £40 endoscope camera the other day for the first time at work, it is amazing how good a picture you can get with a little patience, those photos aren`t very good at all, given the £500+ Snap on camera used Sad
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glenwells
Silverstone


Joined: 20 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
Baz would usually refer to them as polish marks, it has been said many times before that a borescope needs to be done by someone that knows what they are looking at or it is just a waste of money.

There have even been stories of people shelling out for a full rebuild on the say so of someone not qualified to make the call as to whether there is scoring or not.


I was told my 997 gen 2 had a bore scored engine and would need a rebuild. Hartech independently assessed it and saved me from said rebuild as quoted above. Now had the car 2 1/2 years 12K miles so far.

What I was shown when I was there having it checked out was that just changing the camera angle and scope light angle changed the appearance of cylinder marks/lines. Other factors like quality of scope camera obviously affect things as well.

Therefore, assessing things not clearcut in some cases, obvious in some though.

I can understand why the OP would walk though and not take the chance given the internet traffic bore scoring receives.
 
  
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NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1544
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That does not look like bore scoring and it’s just the finish on the liners

Bore scoring puts much deeper grooves in the metal than that and you would have a lot more lines on the metal. It’s much deeper and obvious

Was their soot on the left bank? Did it smoke on start up? Did you hear the tapping from the piston slap as you get the ovalling of the piston?

Sounds like you have walked away from a good car and I would remove the details of it as it could harm the seller
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
That does not look like bore scoring and it’s just the finish on the liners

Bore scoring puts much deeper grooves in the metal than that and you would have a lot more lines on the metal. It’s much deeper and obvious


yes

I've seen scored engines at Hartech & they look proper horror story stuff - similar to when you see a car bodywork that's been keyed - puts shivers down my spine. Looks to me like bank 2 was done and can be seen with clean bores in a couple of your photos and bank 1 is now goosed (hence the puff of smoke out the right tailpipe and an image or 2 that's potentially scored).

There is also the potential the previous owner drove 50 miles home with a burst radiator, no water in the system & temp gauge in the red, saying to himself - it'll be reyt, they used to be aircooled anyway Grin
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 974
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impressed with the knowledge many of you have picked up over the recent years.

Pictures are indeed hard to interpret but none of them look like scoring to me.

Although our web site contains a lot of historical information about t he subject it is several years out of date and so I have recently written updates on the bore scoring issue that will soon replace the old text and will answer all of the questions raised.

There is too much involved to reproduce here but just to correct one thing - there are 4 repair modes, new crankcases with the same potential failure Lokasil bores, iron liners (of which we have many that subsequently failed and the new report explains why), plating onto the scored cylinder and replacement with alloy Nikasil liners (of which there are 2 versions on the market and ours is different than the other because it also d=secures the liner at the top and results in it becoming a closed deck method which is generally recognised as superior). Several thousand have been replaced and over a thousand engines rebuilt by us this way without issue.

However when a customer order is accepted for a bore score we cannot insist on all 6 being replaced although (as this post demonstrates) for those unable or unwilling to pay for all 6 use our less expensive alternative - it still has worked well for tens of thousands of miles.

It is always easy for miss-information to discredit or harm suppliers unfairly and as in this case I do wish those responsible would have the courtesy to contact us to find out the full story before deciding to post their opinions.

I hope the new report on bore scoring will help clear u p a lot of the always present confusion - due in probably 3 - 4 weeks time.

Baz
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just put a deposit on a 54 plate black C2S with Fuchs alloys Very Happy wack
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FZP
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post Baz as always.

Alex Dance Tap Dance Tap Dance Tap
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