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Paul Ricard


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone tip off The guys at Rip Off Britain. .. Grin
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Pagoda1966
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
“Are you planning on attending his open day this Saturday?


Oh yes, i’m attending (have cameras at the ready).

Was going to post something on the 924 Owners Club website (as it’s one of their big events) but noticed that the Yorkshire rep is Andrew’s General Manager at Gmund so suspect any post would be removed instantly.
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Pagoda1966
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
“Someone tip off The guys at Rip Off Britain”


On it (plus Watchdog and others).
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Captain Lockheed
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the legal position here?

If a dealer D takes a car on SOR from seller S and then sells it to buyer B. Takes B's money, but doesn't pay seller S, who owns the car?
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Magic919
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In England it’s generally the buyer. The seller is then owned money by the dealer.
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squelch
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Joined: 05 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Lockheed wrote:
What is the legal position here?

If a dealer D takes a car on SOR from seller S and then sells it to buyer B. Takes B's money, but doesn't pay seller S, who owns the car?


As usual it all depends on the T's&C's in the contract signed by the owner / seller of the car and the dealer (although I think often an SOR sale is pretty much just done on a verbal agreement / handshake). The law states that you cannot sell something that is not yours to sell so, in the absence of a written agreement relinquishing ownership of the vehicle to the dealer, and since the original owner has been given no consideration (payment) for his car, he still owns it. Thus, he would have the right to go and repossess / retrieve it (if he knew where it was) and the unfortunate buyer would have to seek recourse / refund from the dealer. And as we all know, the V5 is not proof of ownership, so just because the dealer has sent off the V5 it does not give the new "owner" legal possession of the vehicle. It would probably be a ball ache getting the V5 back from DVLA though, but provided there is enough evidence they ought to support.

I think if I ever used the SOR route, I would retain the spare key until I'd been paid, possibly put a tracker in the car and if the Gmund scenario happened, report to the police that it'd been stolen (by Gmund).
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mark pearce
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Joined: 06 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

squelch wrote:
Captain Lockheed wrote:
What is the legal position here?

If a dealer D takes a car on SOR from seller S and then sells it to buyer B. Takes B's money, but doesn't pay seller S, who owns the car?


As usual it all depends on the T's&C's in the contract signed by the owner / seller of the car and the dealer (although I think often an SOR sale is pretty much just done on a verbal agreement / handshake). The law states that you cannot sell something that is not yours to sell so, in the absence of a written agreement relinquishing ownership of the vehicle to the dealer, and since the original owner has been given no consideration (payment) for his car, he still owns it. Thus, he would have the right to go and repossess / retrieve it (if he knew where it was) and the unfortunate buyer would have to seek recourse / refund from the dealer. And as we all know, the V5 is not proof of ownership, so just because the dealer has sent off the V5 it does not give the new "owner" legal possession of the vehicle. It would probably be a ball ache getting the V5 back from DVLA though, but provided there is enough evidence they ought to support.

I think if I ever used the SOR route, I would retain the spare key until I'd been paid, possibly put a tracker in the car and if the Gmund scenario happened, report to the police that it'd been stolen (by Gmund).



My understanding, from a barrister albeit 25 years ago is/ was

when you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you are giving the dealer "title' to the vehicle
if he doesn't pay you, you can only sue him for the debt,
the new owner of the vehicle, has clean title to it having bought it from a recognised car dealer.

so the original owner cannot for example take the car from the new owner as he has given his title to the goods the scum bag car dealer
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squelch
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 457
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark pearce wrote:
squelch wrote:
Captain Lockheed wrote:
What is the legal position here?

If a dealer D takes a car on SOR from seller S and then sells it to buyer B. Takes B's money, but doesn't pay seller S, who owns the car?


As usual it all depends on the T's&C's in the contract signed by the owner / seller of the car and the dealer (although I think often an SOR sale is pretty much just done on a verbal agreement / handshake). The law states that you cannot sell something that is not yours to sell so, in the absence of a written agreement relinquishing ownership of the vehicle to the dealer, and since the original owner has been given no consideration (payment) for his car, he still owns it. Thus, he would have the right to go and repossess / retrieve it (if he knew where it was) and the unfortunate buyer would have to seek recourse / refund from the dealer. And as we all know, the V5 is not proof of ownership, so just because the dealer has sent off the V5 it does not give the new "owner" legal possession of the vehicle. It would probably be a ball ache getting the V5 back from DVLA though, but provided there is enough evidence they ought to support.

I think if I ever used the SOR route, I would retain the spare key until I'd been paid, possibly put a tracker in the car and if the Gmund scenario happened, report to the police that it'd been stolen (by Gmund).



My understanding, from a barrister albeit 25 years ago is/ was

when you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, you are giving the dealer "title' to the vehicle
if he doesn't pay you, you can only sue him for the debt,
the new owner of the vehicle, has clean title to it having bought it from a recognised car dealer.

so the original owner cannot for example take the car from the new owner as he has given his title to the goods the scum bag car dealer


As per my post, it all depends on the terms set out at the start and the passing of title to the dealer is certainly not the default position if it's not part of a written and signed contract (and I cannot believe anyone would accept the term "you are passing title to us immediately"). There is also the need for consideration (payment) to be given in order for ownership of a good to be passed (even if it's just a quid). I must confess though it's been a while since I passed the exams and things do evolve (and generally for the better). In the event of a dispute though, the first port of call is always the contract to clarify one's position and in the absence of any terms relinquishing ownership of the car, the car remains the property of the original owner. Sadly, establishing that in court will likely be a lengthy and costly process. And even when proved, it doesn't mean you'll get your money - you can put a charge on his property/ies and in turn ruin his credit rating, but that doesn't put the money in your account though! I have a charge on someone's house over a very costly dispute, but I'm fourth in line and I'll have to wait for him to die and his estate be sold to get what's owed. The law is an ass! Sometimes the "other" routes are swifter and more effective...
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Pagoda1966
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly, I have not given any thought to the legal position of the new (innocent) owner and have purposely refrained from quoting the registration number for fear of blighting the excellent history of this super vehicle.

However, I suspect they may be on a sticky-wicket but plan to avail myself of all legal remedies against Andrew Mearns, Samantha Mearns (a Director of the business at the time the vehicle was consigned) and Gmund Cars Limited.

The deadline given by my lawyers for payment of the £52,495 debt has now passed without payment so the gloves are now very much off....
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HSC911
Long Beach


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
Posts: 6461
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pagoda1966 wrote:
so the gloves are now very much off....


Boxer

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patpending
Montreal


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 617
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I strongly suspect that this may be fraud and deception - both are criminal offences.

Sections 2(1) and (2) of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001 provide a definition of deception. It applies to the following offences: Making gain or causing loss by deception, contrary to section 6 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001.
 
  
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patpending
Montreal


Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 617
Location: IoM


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pagoda1966 wrote:
Interestingly, I have not given any thought to the legal position of the new (innocent) owner and have purposely refrained from quoting the registration number for fear of blighting the excellent history of this super vehicle.

However, I suspect they may be on a sticky-wicket but plan to avail myself of all legal remedies against Andrew Mearns, Samantha Mearns (a Director of the business at the time the vehicle was consigned) and Gmund Cars Limited.

The deadline given by my lawyers for payment of the £52,495 debt has now passed without payment so the gloves are now very much off....


It’s vital that you alert the police and make a report as this is not(just) a civil matter. Often a call from plod can have the desired effect in these situations and save you a lot of grief.

So head down to your local plod office and inform them that you believe you could now be a victim of fraud and/or deception and let them pick it up for you.

Nowadays we think of scams and deception as happening via the internet but the good old fashioned ones still exist!

Take all the contact details(inc addresses ) tel no’s and email with you

BTW - Samantha Mearns resigned as a director in Dec 2018, leaving one sole director. I always get concerned when I see a spouse or family member resigning from a company.

and FYI

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06023490/charges/wEbj-tjIe3Cab9uHz1votNJdUyA

Note charge(pdf) and director status

The stock in hand statement is always interesting in a P&L. strip that out and err, well 🔥

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06023490/filing-history Rolling Eyes

Last edited by patpending on Wed May 15, 2019 1:14 pm; edited 4 times in total
 
  
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Tombri
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Joined: 29 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the line of going to the police and informing them that your car has been stolen but you happen to know a) who the thief is and b) where it is located.

Good luck Pagoda. KungFu
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easternjets
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was approached last month by a London dealer, who offered to sell my vehicle on an SOR basis.
I've just read the contract/agreement that they drew up and emailed to me. There is no mention at all of Legal Title or even of a time frame for paying me the money. There is mention of penalty clauses should I decide to take the car back from them.
As others have said I think a lot of this is done on trust and when dealing with the motor trade that is probably the biggest mistake you can make. I'm not in anyway insinuating that all the motor trade are bad it's just that one rotten apple, Gmund and Andrew Mearns, have tarnished the trades reputation.
A lot of sales invoices for goods purchased on account have a line at the bottom which says' Legal title does not pass to the purchaser until the goods are paid for in full'.
This is an extremely messy situation and not dissimilar to the one I had with Yorkshire Classic Porsche except the amount was only a £1000.00. In that case I put pressure on Jon and contacted his wife who also was a director of the business and it was actually her that sorted the situation out and refunded my money, a large part was played by this forum and the pressure they were put under just proved too much for them to handle.
I know how pi@@@d off I was when I thought I would lose a £1000 this situation just beggars belief, especially so when he boasts of selling a million pound 959.
As I posted before you have his wife's work email address and that is where I would start, she might cry foul but at the end of the day she was party to his dealings by being a director.
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Rossi911
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pagoda1966 wrote:
Quote:
“Are you planning on attending his open day this Saturday?


Oh yes, i’m attending (have cameras at the ready).

Was going to post something on the 924 Owners Club website (as it’s one of their big events) but noticed that the Yorkshire rep is Andrew’s General Manager at Gmund so suspect any post would be removed instantly.


Since Andy is reading this thread with interest.

I'll be coming down to your open day on Sat to say hello bye


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patpending
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone owes you money the sooner you come down hard and fast the better the probable outcome will be.

or

You remain the legal owner of that vehicle are entitled to the keys and your property on demand.

If it’s not where it should be it may have stolen by persons unknown
 
  
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squelch
Nürburgring


Joined: 05 Jun 2016
Posts: 457
Location: Bucks


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easternjets wrote:
I was approached last month by a London dealer, who offered to sell my vehicle on an SOR basis.
I've just read the contract/agreement that they drew up and emailed to me. There is no mention at all of Legal Title or even of a time frame for paying me the money. There is mention of penalty clauses should I decide to take the car back from them.
As others have said I think a lot of this is done on trust and when dealing with the motor trade that is probably the biggest mistake you can make. I'm not in anyway insinuating that all the motor trade are bad it's just that one rotten apple, Gmund and Andrew Mearns, have tarnished the trades reputation.
A lot of sales invoices for goods purchased on account have a line at the bottom which says' Legal title does not pass to the purchaser until the goods are paid for in full'.
This is an extremely messy situation and not dissimilar to the one I had with Yorkshire Classic Porsche except the amount was only a £1000.00. In that case I put pressure on Jon and contacted his wife who also was a director of the business and it was actually her that sorted the situation out and refunded my money, a large part was played by this forum and the pressure they were put under just proved too much for them to handle.
I know how pi@@@d off I was when I thought I would lose a £1000 this situation just beggars belief, especially so when he boasts of selling a million pound 959.
As I posted before you have his wife's work email address and that is where I would start, she might cry foul but at the end of the day she was party to his dealings by being a director.


Strictly speaking "Penalty Clauses" are unenforceable (and if specifically written as such are often dismissed by a ruling party / ADR process without further discussion). The clause must be a Liquidated Damages clause and be specific about the loss / costs incurred eg "If the customer withdraws their car from SOR though us within x days then they shall be liable to cover our costs of sale (storage, advertising, marketing, valeting etc) to the value of £xxx".

As an example regarding title, Munich Legends (BMW specialist) SOR terms clearly state "Title for all SOR vehicles rests with the Customer until the vehicle has been sold and cleared funds to the value detailed in section 4 overleaf (SOR Price) have been paid to the Customer in full."

Good luck at the open day, Pagoda! I wish it was nearer me as I'd have loved to pop along to add support!
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gonesailing
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not buying a car from Gmund then!!
 
  
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent first post Dont know
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonesailing wrote:
Not buying a car from Gmund then!!


Andrew Dont know Surprised
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