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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 45



PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:38 pm    Post subject: 997 t gen1 Turbo replacement... issues! Reply with quote

An update to my last thread trying to work through the cars (various!) issues. It turns out one of my turbo's is badly corroded and is actually leaking exhaust gas from the hot side housing.. after speaking to some expert indys this is apparently getting common on these cars now.
Anyway, we have replaced a lot of the coolant pipes, and other smaller items and the car was looking good, until I discovered it still didnt boost and was running poorly!!.

Fast forward to now, I'm getting the turbos off to replace them, but it is putting up a fight. Both turbos are heavily corroded and will need replacing, but also the oil and coolant supply pipes that go to them are giving me a major battle. Having a lot of experience with supras and bmw's, Im still finding my feet (faster than I hoped!) with the flat 6. So is there anyone who has any tips or tricks for getting the remaining lines off the turbo? Any tips or advice?

The one with a red box highlighting it is the current problem one, but I think the two behind it on the top of the unit will also be bad. But I need this off to access them properly.

Is it possible to replace these lines, both sides with the engine in the car? (lowering it is fine) . I cannot get this one out. The tab is bending and there is very little way of getting purchase to get something into the corrosion blended turbo housing/pipe flange.

Ive tried heat, no chance. Access is also awkward as is getting leverage. Thought about Inductive heat (dont have one yet) was a thought but not sure if that will work with the pipe metal. I really dont want to cut the pipes, any suggestions are appreciated...!!

Dropping the engine is something I wanted to avoid for now if I can!

thanks






 
  
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also going to have to cut the turbo support nut off and redo it
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6519
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be honest and say i've not yet had to do this .. my observations though ..

The pipe is not that expensive .. it will be pretty much welded on so other than heat and a lever bar .. perhaps a slide hammer then there's not a lot you can do .

I'm not sure off hand if it can be replaced with the engine in situ but it looks to me that if you dropped the engine to the brace bar you could replace this pipe .

Exhaust pipes through the rear PU would mean you have to remove the PU to drop the engine along with the air intake pipe to the intercoolers .

This isn't a full engine drop though .. just lowering it a bit .


https://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?MAK=3&MDL=29&TBL=3462&SMA=0&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0

No. 11 and 12 for each side here .
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Addo
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same issue on my fathers 996 turbo, although the hole was larger than that. The hardest job is removing the turbo and oil line from the block.

I sent it to AET turbo's (01924 894171) to be rebuilt as they have spares for most turbo's. They offered an exchange for £685 +vat leading 1-2 days or rebuild your own £250 + vat (depending on parts) and 2-3 days, both came with 2 year warranty. Porsche oil lines are about £90 each, i was very happy with the service so would advise speaking with them.
 
  
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Addo wrote:
I had the same issue on my fathers 996 turbo, although the hole was larger than that. The hardest job is removing the turbo and oil line from the block.

I sent it to AET turbo's (01924 894171) to be rebuilt as they have spares for most turbo's. They offered an exchange for £685 +vat leading 1-2 days or rebuild your own £250 + vat (depending on parts) and 2-3 days, both came with 2 year warranty. Porsche oil lines are about £90 each, i was very happy with the service so would advise speaking with them.


Thanks Addo

very helpful. Does anyone know how different the 997 turbochargers are to the 997 turbos? Before I set into this I got one quote from the only place I could find who would do a rebuild (tdi turbos) and I was led to them via a few other turbo places who said we cant do those. The main reason seemed to be that the borg warner housings are very hard/impossible to get hold of they said. Tdi machines out the rotten but and fits a machined patch and refurbs them to as new with 2 year warranty for £750 + vat per side. But they said if they are too far gone (too thin) they cant repair them. I have a feeling these ones are toast!!

What lines did you have to replace? I havent tried to get the the one that needs a brake pipe flare spanner out yet (oil line I guess), but the side one is a water feed, then I have the water return behind it and the pressure line, whatever that is. Im really hoping the ones on the top of the turbo arent as bad as this! They dont look as bad.
How long did it take to replace them, I've not identified where they all go yet, but Im really hoping I dont have to replace them all, on both sides Hand
 
  
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 45



PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:
I'll be honest and say i've not yet had to do this .. my observations though ..

The pipe is not that expensive .. it will be pretty much welded on so other than heat and a lever bar .. perhaps a slide hammer then there's not a lot you can do .

I'm not sure off hand if it can be replaced with the engine in situ but it looks to me that if you dropped the engine to the brace bar you could replace this pipe .

Exhaust pipes through the rear PU would mean you have to remove the PU to drop the engine along with the air intake pipe to the intercoolers .

This isn't a full engine drop though .. just lowering it a bit .


https://www.deroure.com/diagrams.asp?MAK=3&MDL=29&TBL=3462&SMA=0&SMO=0&ST=&SC=0

No. 11 and 12 for each side here .


Thanks Demort, much appreciated as usual Thumb
Both intercoolers and all pipework is off, as is rear bumper and support bar. I wanted to see exactly what was going on, no oil in the OS IC and a little as to be expected in the NS bottom pipe but nothing of note.

That diagram is an easier reference than the pdf parts sheets, thanks for that. The other water feed and 'pressure pipe' (oil I guess) on top of the turbos, do you reckon they are replaceable also with an engine lowering? From the picture below it looks like one of the pipes goes under the inlet manifold, and I am guessing that is an engine out job.

They may come out ok but Im preparing for the worst!

Cheers
 
  
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easternjets
Kyalami


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1953
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Darkhorse, I took mine off on the N/S to get to the plugs. From memory and looking at a pic of the strip down that pipe has a 8 or 10 mm bolt holding it in, have you got the bolt out yet cause it doesn't look like you have.
I've got a pic of my turbo off the car. I'll need to reduce it to put it up here. Nick
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 45



PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easternjets wrote:
Hi Darkhorse, I took mine off on the N/S to get to the plugs. From memory and looking at a pic of the strip down that pipe has a 8 or 10 mm bolt holding it in, have you got the bolt out yet cause it doesn't look like you have.
I've got a pic of my turbo off the car. I'll need to reduce it to put it up here. Nick

Hi Nick

Yes indeed! All bolts came out nicely. Just cant get the damn fitting out. I am guessing its O ringed like the other one I removed, just cannot get it to budge yet...



thanks, pics would be great mate
 
  
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darkhorse
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking of buying an induction heater to give that a bash. ok its £300 ish but could save me having to replace the pipes and instead have to just replace orings! Not sure if it will be any use on this but I did wonder if it would make redoing the exhaust manifold bolts more predictable.. (I dont need to do them , but its on the list at some point when the car is sorted!)
 
  
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easternjets
Kyalami


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1953
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I would not use an induction unit, the reason is that it will heat the fitting which will cause it to expand inside the hole.
I think brute force is the best solution or maybe a slide hammer to shock it out.
Clean as much of the 'crud' off as you can and soak it in penetrating fluid, if I remember right that's what I did to get mine out.
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 45



PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easternjets wrote:
Personally I would not use an induction unit, the reason is that it will heat the fitting which will cause it to expand inside the hole.
I think brute force is the best solution or maybe a slide hammer to shock it out.
Clean as much of the 'crud' off as you can and soak it in penetrating fluid, if I remember right that's what I did to get mine out.


Thanks. On it at present, ready for round two after work tonight! It is heavily soaked in plus gas, and I have some bits of metal I am going to try and bolt/weld into a 'special tool' as I need to get behind the pipe as close to the head of it as possible to enable a slide hammer action. I may need to get some more steel stock supplies tomorrow if this plan doesnt work.
Was your turbo rusted? (badly) or just standard corrosion?

My thoughts on the induction heating were to heat the turbo centre housing and hopefully free up the fitting a bit, but that really is a last resort option at the moment!!

cheers
 
  
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easternjets
Kyalami


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1953
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine wasn't badly corroded, it was one of those jobs that I started and spent most of my time wishing I hadn't! It was worth it in the end as I saved a lot on workshop time if i'd put it in to a garage.
Picture of my turbo off, hope this helps.
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997 Turbo Tiptronic S
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Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera 1985
 



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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 6519
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im afraid its not a job i've ever done so i cant say the access to replace the pipes .. but i know just how corroded in some of these pipes can be .. its in theory x2 rubber O rings holding it in .. whether it comes out though .. its pry bar and leverage basically and if it breaks then a new pipe .

heat is difficult .. i would try it out of desperation though .
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NickHappy
Nürburgring


Joined: 27 Apr 2014
Posts: 433
Location: W.Sussex


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Luck with this DarkHorse - interesting thread and please keep us updated on how you get on.

I’m lucky enough not to have to go about doing this this yet but appreciate it might be inevitable and quite eye watering on the costs if you put it into a Porsche specialist to carry out the job.
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Iby
Trainee


Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Posts: 86
Location: W.Midlands


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done this job on my own car and honestly can say its easier to drop the engine and box to carry out the work.
If your turbo core is corroded I doubt very much the pipes will come out intact. I ended up replacing all of mine.
 
  
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Iby
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Posts: 86
Location: W.Midlands


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done this job on my own car and honestly can say its easier to drop the engine and box to carry out the work.
If your turbo core is corroded I doubt very much the pipes will come out intact. I ended up replacing all of mine.
 
  
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easternjets
Kyalami


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1953
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's okay to drop an engine and gearbox if you have the facilities to do it and the help as well. I'm afraid all I had was axle stands and 2 trolley jacks!

I don't remember having such a chew on getting it out but as you can see there was a lot of corrosion around the pipe and opening. I'm pretty certain if you can get a puller of some kind on to it, it'll pull out.
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 45



PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys. Well I didn't get much time on it tonight, suffice to say my efforts were fruitless. I have been thinking that way to be honest Iby, but I had hoped my days of doing major work off axle stands solo are numbered. **updated, I was thinking of buying a midrise lift, unsure atm due to the logistics of it trashing the 2 car garageability

The pipe is entirely welded in! The main issue (to update anyone who hasnt tried this!) is there is no leverage point sufficient to exert the amount of strength it will take, and the pipe will probably snap before that anyway. I am not going too crazy on it because if it sheers off, then the other two top ones do, I am in for doing it all off axle stands which isn't a favoured option +update

I have read some threads on here where people have removed engines off stands, it is clearly do able, I am going to work out how high I need to get it. I cant be bothered to refit everything to put it on a lift, I have an engine crane so can lower the engine out if needed.

After reading some tech info on dropping the engine/box from this, it doesnt sound too bad, I am lacking something to wheel it out on though so will have a think on that. If I can do this without engine out, I will be for sure but that may not pan out!

Will update!!

Last edited by darkhorse on Wed May 08, 2019 8:37 am; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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darkhorse
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Addo wrote:
I had the same issue on my fathers 996 turbo, although the hole was larger than that. The hardest job is removing the turbo and oil line from the block.

I sent it to AET turbo's (01924 894171) to be rebuilt as they have spares for most turbo's. They offered an exchange for £685 +vat leading 1-2 days or rebuild your own £250 + vat (depending on parts) and 2-3 days, both came with 2 year warranty. Porsche oil lines are about £90 each, i was very happy with the service so would advise speaking with them.


Thanks Addo

I guess the 997 turbos with the VVT are a lot more than that from my research. Quite a few specialists (Im sure I called AET) couldn't get parts for them or wouldn't refurb them because centre housings are NLA. I did find a place that does a repair kit for the rotten housing, if they are not too bad. And that was £750 per side plus vat for a full refurb with warranty which I thought was very reasaonble. I have a feeling though mine will be in the 'sorry mate' category so I have ended up getting a mint used pair from a big tuning shop with 12k miles on from the states, hopefully when they arrive I will have these off.

Did you have to replace all the lines? Is it possible (even if difficult) then with the engine still in?
 
  
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darkhorse
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Joined: 24 Feb 2019
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on this. Can't get the water pipes off the turbos in the car, so going to remove the engine and box at some point in the next week or two and remove all pipes with it out, and replace the ones that need it (if I cant still get them off the turbos).

Bit of a pain to be honest but gives me a chance to attend to anything else while the engine is out and of course get my first tick on the scoreboard of 997t engine removal/refit. If it would be of use to others I can take some pictures and do a thread on the job, seeing as there is very little on mezger engine removal that I can find online.

Anything else crucial that I should replace while the engine is out?
Im going to go through it all closely. Potentially will pin the coolant pipes depending on if they look new or not as the car has had plenty replaced over the years from looking at it.

I was thinking about replacing the exhaust manifold bolts while its out, but I have read about the nightmare these can be and the manifolds are not leaking at all. Will see how that goes. Some of the bolts heads are corroded quite heavily. I read somewhere that 997t bolts come out better than 996 studs. I cant see that being the case though it doesnt sit well with me not doing them while the engine is in front of me..!

Cheers

Last edited by darkhorse on Sat May 11, 2019 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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