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rdodger
Monza


Joined: 08 Apr 2018
Posts: 185
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's bad news, I really feel for you.
 
  
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6978
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmare, really sorry to read this at such an early point in your ownership.

What are you going to do- mothball it til you’ve saved up the funds? Get it really clean and enter some concours for year or two?

Glad you have such a positive outlook. The good news is that after the rebuild you will have a car that will last longer than the legal use of ICE cars!

And maybe have a chat with Hartech about a 3.9 litre conversion... costs not a lot more as part of a rebuild. Wink
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simkin911
Newbie


Joined: 02 Oct 2013
Posts: 48
Location: Midlothian


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s very bad luck. As someone looking for a c4s right now, this is a massive wake up call for me. Especially as i suspect you bought (from your description) a car you considered to be in robust order and with a good solid history.

Feel for you at a time with your 911 enjoyment should be at a peak.
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Manabana
Newbie


Joined: 22 Jan 2013
Posts: 25
Location: South London/Wales/West Yorkshire


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@rdodger - Don't feel bad for me... seriously if this is the worst that can happen in life, I'll happily take it, its just a machine that can be fixed anytime.
I still own a Porsche 911, its still a 996 C4S that will appreciate over time, nobody is putting a gun to my head to fix it.
It'll just be used a little more sparingly then I initially planned (I have 4 cars to juggle, and barely time to drive any of them right now). When I have the money spare, I'll get it fixed and I'll have it for a long long time after that Smile
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1262
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a great attitude to have, I think we all feel your pain so short into the experience. With money so cheap to loan at the moment would you consider financing the project rather than having to wait 2 years?
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Marky911
Indianapolis


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2322



PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightmare Manabana.

The worst introduction into 911 life possible. Well done for being so level headed about it. nooo

I’d still be contacting the former keeper though. You’ll probably get no joy but you can express how pee’d off you are, as he would have known. He’d have had the warning signs well before he sold it.

Anyway good luck with it.
 
  
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kurlykris
Indianapolis


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 2365
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really sorry to hear this OP, but I suspected this was the problem, you have the right attitude though, save some beer vouchers and get her in to Hartech, remember it will take about 3 months to get sorted and the bill due to their workload, it may shorten the timescale of the whole process Thumb
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GMG
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 357
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...a sobering story for anyone thinking of buying one of these cars and reinforces my oft stated view that to mitigate risk one should buy a rebuilt one or accept that you need £10k plus available should,as in this case, the worst happen...
 
  
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bigfella70
Monza


Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 163
Location: Shire Of York


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear of your experience. I agree with others that you're approach is very good and of course the C4S is a lovely thing.

Have you seriously considered trying to seek some recompense from the vendor? Although caveat emptor applies and there is very little comeback on a private sale,

I think you may have some grounds based on the description provided by the private vendor. Do you have a copy of the advert, are there references to being in good or very good condition?

I'm not suggesting trying to obtain a refund and from reading the advert I think you'd rather keep the car. However you may be able to negotiate a partial contribution for the rebuild work.

Worth looking into IMHO. We all expect to do some work on a newly acquired car to get them to our preferred standards, however being landed with a full rebuild because of an existing bore score issue is a little excessive.

All the best and I'm sure you will enjoy the car.
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g911omr
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 276



PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to hear the bad news. What makes it worse is that the previous owner new very well that the car had an issue. I would absolutely make contact and give him the opportunity to comment on the situation. Bad form and actually rather stupid depending on the type of person who ends up getting turned over.
 
  
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wasz
Sepang


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2916


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sell the M3 and fix it, they are worth it and the M3 will be surplus!

This is why people need to have a bore scope on a 3.6 before buying, and even then be aware that it will probably happen at some point, and seemingly can happen overnight.

Interesting the noise just started like that rather than coming on gradually, as far as I know the cylinders get hot due to poor cooling, the piston coating flakes off - gets trapped in the rings and scores the bores. So once a bit flakes off it must pretty quickly trash the bores.

I have had other cars with worn bores and piston slap, but that has gradually come on and got worse slowly - presumably because that wear was a more natural wear not chunks of piston coating being dragged down the bores.
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 650
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...a sobering story for anyone thinking of buying one of these cars and reinforces my oft stated view that to mitigate risk one should buy a rebuilt one or accept that you need £10k plus available should,as in this case, the worst happen...


+1
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 650
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

g911omr wrote:
I'm sorry to hear the bad news. What makes it worse is that the previous owner new very well that the car had an issue. I would absolutely make contact and give him the opportunity to comment on the situation. Bad form and actually rather stupid depending on the type of person who ends up getting turned over.


TOTALLY agree with you.......previous owner knew 100% Gun Fire

How *%@$s like that can sleep at night is beyond me. Let's hope there is some Karma around the corner for him Judge

OP......I have been there.

On the plus side, I can highly recommend Hartech. Grant and Tobias are great lads Thumb

Also you will be getting a spot on engine after it is done. The rebuild I had done was 6 years ago.
I sold the car a year after the rebuild and was in contact with the guy I sold it to and he said it has run absolutely fine for the last 5 years.

By the way...just because it is tapping (yours is a little bit noisier than mine was) and probably using a bit of oil doesn't mean it's about to explode....I ran mine for nearly a year until the water pump gave up before I had the rebuild done.

I had a warranty, so I only forked out about 40% of the cost....it only covered a large percentage of the cost of the new parts and none of the "Betterment".
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6978
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting one on the previous owner... I have two Porsche-owning friends (with a 997C2S and a 996 C4S respectively) and I can guarantee neither have any idea whatsoever about bore-score, IMSB etc. They just are not those sort of people. Chances are they could sell those cars utterly unwittingly with a major fault that had not manifested in a serious noise or clouds of smoke which might prompt a visit to a specialist. Certainly a sooty exhaust or higher oil consumption would not worry them.

There is no guarantee that the previous owner of this car knew as there were clearly no symptoms that revealed themselves to the buyer in his own pre-purchase checks.
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 650
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
Interesting one on the previous owner... I have two Porsche-owning friends (with a 997C2S and a 996 C4S respectively) and I can guarantee neither have any idea whatsoever about bore-score, IMSB etc. They just are not those sort of people. Chances are they could sell those cars utterly unwittingly with a major fault that had not manifested in a serious noise or clouds of smoke which might prompt a visit to a specialist. Certainly a sooty exhaust or higher oil consumption would not worry them.

There is no guarantee that the previous owner of this car knew as there were clearly no symptoms that revealed themselves to the buyer in his own pre-purchase checks.


..yes but the OP had said that the owner had just put the car in the garage and that they had given it a clean bill of health.

Just listen to the tapping in the video and I would suggest that no Porsche specialist would miss that and together with the sooty tailpipe.......even I would be able to diagnose that Thumb
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6978
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhodris-dad wrote:
Robertb wrote:
Interesting one on the previous owner... I have two Porsche-owning friends (with a 997C2S and a 996 C4S respectively) and I can guarantee neither have any idea whatsoever about bore-score, IMSB etc. They just are not those sort of people. Chances are they could sell those cars utterly unwittingly with a major fault that had not manifested in a serious noise or clouds of smoke which might prompt a visit to a specialist. Certainly a sooty exhaust or higher oil consumption would not worry them.

There is no guarantee that the previous owner of this car knew as there were clearly no symptoms that revealed themselves to the buyer in his own pre-purchase checks.


..yes but the OP had said that the owner had just put the car in the garage and that they had given it a clean bill of health.

Just listen to the tapping in the video and I would suggest that no Porsche specialist would miss that and together with the sooty tailpipe.......even I would be able to diagnose that Thumb


Umm, the car started tapping only after the new owner got it out of the garage after 6 weeks and 500 miles driving. He'd not noticed any sooting or tapping prior to purchase, else presumably he'd have queried it as he says he'd done his homework.

If the indy was not asked to do a borescope check then I can't see how they'd know what state the bores were in to give it a clean bill of health, other than superficially.

So unless the previous owner put some secret sauce in the engine to shut it up I'd be inclined to put it down to bad luck (or good luck on the part of the seller!)
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 650
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
Rhodris-dad wrote:
Robertb wrote:
Interesting one on the previous owner... I have two Porsche-owning friends (with a 997C2S and a 996 C4S respectively) and I can guarantee neither have any idea whatsoever about bore-score, IMSB etc. They just are not those sort of people. Chances are they could sell those cars utterly unwittingly with a major fault that had not manifested in a serious noise or clouds of smoke which might prompt a visit to a specialist. Certainly a sooty exhaust or higher oil consumption would not worry them.

There is no guarantee that the previous owner of this car knew as there were clearly no symptoms that revealed themselves to the buyer in his own pre-purchase checks.


..yes but the OP had said that the owner had just put the car in the garage and that they had given it a clean bill of health.

Just listen to the tapping in the video and I would suggest that no Porsche specialist would miss that and together with the sooty tailpipe.......even I would be able to diagnose that Thumb


Umm, the car started tapping only after the new owner got it out of the garage after 6 weeks and 500 miles driving. He'd not noticed any sooting or tapping prior to purchase, else presumably he'd have queried it as he says he'd done his homework.

If the indy was not asked to do a borescope check then I can't see how they'd know what state the bores were in to give it a clean bill of health, other than superficially.

So unless the previous owner put some secret sauce in the engine to shut it up I'd be inclined to put it down to bad luck (or good luck on the part of the seller!)



Just like your friends........I did not notice sooty tailpipe or a tapping before I took my car to Hartech for a service. (circa 2010 scoring had not been well publicised)

996, 997.2 and the 991.1 I have now are not the quietest engines at tick over and unless you have heard the ticking of piston slap before, I suggest you would not know. Compared to a Jag V12 or a Roller, they sound deisel like Floor
In my case, Hartech knew before the scoping that it was scored.....they just did it to confirm and provide me with photographic evidence.

The OP has made the video to ask what the tapping noise is...so he certainly would not have recognised it in the first instant.

I also suggest that listening to the video that the tapping is quite loud and to get to that state, would have been ongoing for quite some time.

From my own experience, I drove 7.5K in the first year of ownership and the tapping had not drastically worsened.

It is really unfortunate for the OP as, through no fault of his own, he has not got enough experience to have been able to diagnose the issue on inspection...the way in which I was caught out too! How many have in the early days?

Your suggestion that the previous owner and specialist were not aware of this issue is possible but to me is very unlikely. Specialists by name know these cars and would be checking for signs as a matter of course. One thing they won't tell the owner is that he was not allowed to "sell it on".

When I took out the warranty, it was inspected by an engineer and he mentioned the tapping but said he didn't think it was anything to worry about and passed it. I admit I was very fortunate (not fortunate to get the scoring Floor ) and it did save me some money.

But that goes to show what an innocuous sound it can be to the untrained ear and that engineer was clearly unaware of the issues these cars suffered.
(I am sure they are now).

Mine was diagnosed at around 80k miles too and I think the consensus is that once the cars have passed that mark the occurrence of scoring diminishes.

As lots of owners have pointed out, it is only a relatively small percentage that have the issue.

But that doesn't help the unfortunate OP....but at least he has a sort after model that in the future will only increase in value.......and with a Hartech rebuild will be very desirable Thumb

I've rambled on a bit...apologies
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Robertb
Long Beach


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 6978
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense... I envy new owners the joy of using their cars without the paranoia of "wazzat noise??" that seasoned M96/7ers have!

I got the impression though from the OP's first post that the noise literally suddenly started one morning, to the point he video'd it to ask the question. Which is surprising for bore-score, I always imagined that unless there was some reason (e.g over-revving when cold, overheating, low oil etc) it would get gradually more symptomatic until it sounded like a cement mixer.
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ragpicker
Estoril


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3979
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad luck OP nooo

Fantastic attitude though dude Thumb

Lots of conjecture on here about the PO who nobody but the OP knows anything about. In my experience the vast majority of owners of 911's have no idea about their failings or any mechanical nouse at all. You'll never know if they knew about it but its a fair bet they didn't.

As others have said, there's no rush in getting it fixed - you can run them for ages before its necessary. By the tone of your post I suspect Hartech have given you all the info you need about running it.

The 996 4S is a fabulous car. Glad yours has such a good owner Thumb
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Marky911
Indianapolis


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 2322



PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you’re saying Robert and Raggy, the noise came on afterwards etc and some owners are just not that clued up or interested, but one thing he would have noticed was the oil usage.
Unless he never checked it, let it run low, his Indy checked and said get rid, in which case he still knew.
I’d definitely be getting in touch and seeing what he has to say.
 
  
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