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MisterCorn
Dijon


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
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Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds about right to me.

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Alex
Le Mans
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2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...wasz...so you know more than Hartech do you?


Don't you mean resigner?

I thought wasz was agreeing with you Dont know
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Phil 997
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in agreement with others 22k to 25k and if it had been a rebuilt 3.8 25k to 28k
whether guys like it or not the Hartech full 6 rebuild is desirable and DOES command a premium over a stock car purely based on the fact that people will pay a bit more for a car that had the issues addressed and there are not so many of them up for sale. . Thumb
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GMG
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...so sorry Wasz...my retort was intended for resigner...forgive me Very Happy ...and thanks Alex ...
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
I am in agreement with others 22k to 25k and if it had been a rebuilt 3.8 25k to 28k
whether guys like it or not the Hartech full 6 rebuild is desirable and DOES command a premium over a stock car purely based on the fact that people will pay a bit more for a car that had the known issues addressed however small the % risk of these issues is it still concerns people due to the huge amount of conflicting views.
Also there are not so many Hartech full6 rebuilds up for sale. . Thumb


My gen1 was a tip and with a sprint booster fitted and driving it most of the time on the paddle/rockers I loved it, but I do understand the manuals are best on these cars argument.
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Counter Of Beans
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 295
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here we go again with the "chocolate engine" debate..........
It seems to me that the truth - i.e. the actual percentage of engines with IMS and/or bore score problems - is something that isn't revealed by anecdotal evidence.

Everyone has their own bias; GMG has his, because he's had an engine fail on him. Hartech have theirs, because they have a service to sell. Others with engines that have been to Jupiter and back will think the issue is exaggerated.

Given that there's no independently audited "fail rate", I suppose it comes down to one's appetite for risk. That, and price, of course.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been to Hartech.......on numerous occasions......and seen the amount of cars racked up with bore scored engines.

That's enough evidence for me to make an informed decision on my next purchase. Cap

Top of the 'sticky' hit parade in the 997 FAQ section is here for anyone wanting to educate themselves when purchasing a gen 1 997:

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=65761

Vote with your feet members.

.....and Hartech write this stuff because - "they have a service to sell." Dont know


Edit: taken from that sticky:

bazhart wrote:

So – put simply – I think that if the owner of one of these models – on a spirited drive - could not then resist the temptation to floor the car away from standstill (at say lights or junctions) - then I think we could have the worst possible scenario for piston/cylinder scoring at that precise moment.

This would also explain why – once the models are up to temperature and having had the speed gradually increased around say a circuit or long unrestricted roads (say in Germany) they seem to be OK despite the extra strain put on the engines (because thermostats are more open, radiator cooling is good, engine speed is high so oil spray etc is good et)c.

I agree such a proposition is almost madness – I can almost hear you all shouting “what the bl**dy hell do you think I bought it for” - why would anyone buy such a car if they cannot at least feel that acceleration and enjoy that performance (not to mention the satisfaction of showing everyone just how quick the car is when in reality none of us can safely or legally demonstrate anything like the cars top speeds anywhere in the UK – but we can out accelerate most others). Surely that exact scenario is partly why we bought it and high on the list of the pleasure we get from driving it and possibly the only occasion we can stuff it to other drivers! I am not against that – in fact I also love it myself (truth be known).

So I am not proposing you all drive around like old men in a Ford Fiesta – (I am of that age – but still not a slow driver either)but I am just suggesting that – it makes sense to me – that weighing up all the evidence and connecting it to solid technical analysis - this is the most likely moment of failure and therefore – it could be that if you could simply accelerate from a stationary rest - a little more gently – under slightly less throttle opening -for a few seconds until the coolant speed, oil pressure and thermostat opening times and the balance of the oil and lubrication system have equalised again – it may just save the expense and disappointment of an engine failure.

Baz


I'll not ask the salesman how the previous owner drove it before he's likely to fill me with BS.
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Counter Of Beans
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 10 May 2018
Posts: 295
Location: Hampshire


PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex, I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. I don't doubt Baz Hart's expertise for one moment, but of course he has a bias. You know, what with all those "cars racked up with bore scored engines". With that greeting you each day at work, why wouldn't you have a bias, seems obvious Dont know

My points were simply:
1) no-one, Mr Hart included, is independent
2) independently audited data doesn't exist AFAIK.
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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point I was making is it is not internet scaremongering that there's a serious flaw in the design of m96/m97 3.6 and above engine whereby certain areas get far hotter than others due to the cooling system causing it to score bores. It is fact. I just want members old and new, to be perfectly aware of that before they end up with an iro £10k bill by not knowing what they're doing. What resigner said about GMG was wrong and IMHO bellow the belt...........and he calls me a troll! Surprised

Happy Friday thumbsup
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911UK
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Counter Of Beans wrote:
Alex, I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. I don't doubt Baz Hart's expertise for one moment, but of course he has a bias. You know, what with all those "cars racked up with bore scored engines". With that greeting you each day at work, why wouldn't you have a bias, seems obvious Dont know

My points were simply:
1) no-one, Mr Hart included, is independent
2) independently audited data doesn't exist AFAIK.



Ok with that in mind

I can run a survey as i am independent

So what are the questions ?

as we also have to consider not just the basis has your engine failed but the different level of repairs and upgrade

So give me the options and I can start to formulate something
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Alex
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thumbsup Good call.

Question 1: Have you fit a LTT to your M96 3.6 / M97 3.6 & 3.8 engine?

Question 2: Why?
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jl-c
Silverstone


Joined: 22 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fitted a LTT to my M97 3.8 and still had bore score BUT I have no idea how the previous owners drove the car for 60,000 miles before I had it. Cost me a lot for a full Hartech rebuild but hey, some you win, some you lose. I was “aware” so it was a risk I took. I had 10,000 out of it before it had to be done. The only way to be sure is 1: buy a fully rebuilt one or 2: buy a new one. Simple choice! I thoroughly enjoyed the 10,000 and intend to enjoy the next!
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GMG
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 365
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...after my ims related failure I asked for an LTT to be fitted during the rebuild and two of my cylinder bores 5&6 were showing signs of scoring which when shared with Hartech they advised that liners were required...I went for all 6 new liners...

Car had 69k miles, two owners and full and comprehensive OPC dealership service history...
 
  
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
thumbsup Good call.

Question 1: Have you fit a LTT to your M96 3.6 / M97 3.6 & 3.8 engine?

Question 2: Why?


Rather

If I run this through an online survey there need to be a sequence to the question, then options at certain stages before moving onto the next question

as this is not as simple as a yes or no
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bazhart
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Joined: 20 May 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However much some contributors may doubt my integrity - there is a point of logic (or lack of it) in accusing me of bias. In what way does it help my business by advising people how to avoid an engine bore score? It can only reduce the number that fail and therefore demand and in turn demand and supply affects the prices - and only benefits owners if demand is reduced.

Furthrmore the advice about a low temperature thermostat could not possibly earn us any money (especially when it cost several thousands to put temperaure sensors inside engines and test them with different radiator areas in different ambient conditions and driving styles).

Soon to be released to our web site an up to date report on the causes of bore scoring that will indicate how much time and money we devoted to understanding it and therefore providing the best solutions - and that should be enough to convince any doubters of what we are all about - helping owners achieve reliable repairs - and/or increased performance for their money, from a reliable trustworthy supplier.

I suppose I could throq back to doubters that they are in league with unscrupulous competitors and just trying to discredit us for the benefit of themselves or others - but I wouldn't stoop so low without proof.

All the posts on failures, causes and alternative cures are only of interest to those either with bore scoring, or who would not be able to afford a rebuild if they bought a car that suferred - it does not make a car score a bore because we wrote about it.


There are some trustworthy businesses with ethics out there and I do wish those with other agendas or who for some reason cannot trust anyone would just think before casting doubts in the minds of others who may need our help one day.


There are plenty of rogues out there fixing engines short term - but of course - they don[t offer free advice - knowing we could destroy their lack of knowledge and quality solutions.


Our only intention is to inform owners with problems about what we supply and why and if that results in more business it is for the benefit of their car and future purchases of the same car - it is not in any way BIASED.


By explaining technically all that we do we invite others to argue technically - but they never do - because what we do is right and top quality. If we were writing biased technical stuff it would be easy for anyone else to argue against it.


So - come on all you doubters and take me on over what bias you think we provide! telling the truth is not bias which according to the dictionary is "something unfair, unreasonable, a misstep in thinking, a discrepency between a measurement and the true value etc" - give us a break!


Baz
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FZP
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Joined: 18 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The discussion around these engines demonstrates what that particular risk profile is of the psrson enquiring. Some people will want limited risk in their investment, whereas some people will throw caution to the wind with a "she'll be right"
Evidence suggests through experience that certain precursors will lead to issues, so those with a low risk profile will try and avoid those cars, even though they may never develop the scoring.
As someone with a low risk profile for toy investments, I'd pay more for a full Hartech rebuild, and for a 3.6 would pay £24k.
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Robertb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The phrase "I would pay more for a car with a Hartech rebuild" that frequently crops up on these pages tells all that you need to know about the esteem that Baz and his team are generally held.

Put another way, that I could have my 996 4S, engine rebuilt by Hartech, and Ohlins R&T set up by CoG for £30k inc what I paid 4 yrs ago for the car is actually quite exciting. I can't think of another car for the same outlay that I'd want more.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old You lot really shouldn't be sharing "internet wisdom" on here, this isn't pistonheads.

wack
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Robert SausageTrousers
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jl-c wrote:
I fitted a LTT to my M97 3.8 and still had bore score BUT I have no idea how the previous owners drove the car for 60,000 miles before I had it. Cost me a lot for a full Hartech rebuild but hey, some you win, some you lose. I was “aware” so it was a risk I took. I had 10,000 out of it before it had to be done. The only way to be sure is 1: buy a fully rebuilt one or 2: buy a new one. Simple choice! I thoroughly enjoyed the 10,000 and intend to enjoy the next!


Well said! I've done 10k in mine since buying it last August, it's been a dream - it had a full rebuild (6 cyl) just before I bought mine at JAZ Porsche and I drive around with peace of mind even though there are those on here that believe that I should be expecting the bores to go at any point the same as driving a non-rebuilt car!

I've no doubt in my mind that there's evidence that bore scoring is an issue, and no doubt in my mind that every thing Hartech posts about it is the absolute truth, what I do think is a shame is those who have never suffered bore scoring or even owned a 997.1 constantly putting people off buying them, as if you'd be crazy to do so, I'm glad I didn't take any notice of them last August as otherwise I wouldn't have had the fantastic experience of owning an awesome 911 for the last 10k miles, and it's a shame that there's increasing amounts of people that are being put off by those on here constantly banging the drum, those perspective buyers are missing out on owning their dream car. The info needs to be given, but IMO just preparing perspective buyers for the 'what if' scenario and arming them with the info, with no proof of failure rates as we just don't have them, rather than implying that 'you'd be mad to buy a 3.8S Tip' or whatever, because that's not the case.

Seeing a lot of cars with bore score in a relatively small but nationally reputed garage that covers the whole of the UK and specialises in fixing this issue, doesn't really give enough evidence that the failure rate is huge IMO.

As said many times before, if you can't afford to shell out for a rebuild 'if' necessary then don't buy a 911, but being put off buying one purely because of the 'what if' is a shame IMO, they're fantastic cars and not worthy of some comments constantly made by the same people in every thread, as it just makes the probability 'seem' worse than it probably is. IMO.
 
  
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Phil 997
Le Mans
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah , I have tried to avoid contributing to this emotive topic thread but its Friday afternoon I am bored so what the hell Grin Grin

reading through the threads there are reasonable and fair responses from both camps , there will always be the two camps the "they are all going to go pop at some point" camp and the "Its only a small percentage and a reasonable risk "camp.

What none of us know is whether the percentage will increase as the cars get older and miles higher and you can only make an assumption one way or the other.

What I would say to anyone buying a 15yr old thoroughbred sports car of any marque is DONT stretch yourself to the max and DONT assume you won't get no bills . Its just unrealistic . the 997.1 on the whole is a very reliable car that can be driven every day should you wish to but there are 2 or 3 possible risks that come with ownership which is the same for many marques eg Maserati, Range Rover and the list goes on . but we are talking 997s there are logical theories that the 3.6 is stronger and the manual better than the tip re borescore but the 3.6 is not infallible but is clearly seen in lower numbers .

there are things we can do to reduce risk and the advise Hartech offer is sound , we have no way of knowing how previous owners looked after the car though but logic would suggest that if you intended to drive the car hard you would have specced a 3.8 not a 3.6 but then we have the drive it regularly versus the garage queen scenario and would a regularly driven 3.8 be less risk than a 3.6 garage queen
Dont know So really given all the different possibilities it does boil down to personal opinion of risk . and whether man maths can contribute to making you feel better about things .

This I think is where I sit.
We are lucky these cars dont depreciate at the speed something like a bmw or merc does or at the MACH1 depreciation speed of fords and Vauxhalls .

So if your going to own and drive a 25k car for 4/5 years your almost certainly going to lose half the value somewhere some how, this will happen to 100% of fords, vauxhalls , mercs, bmws and most other marques . on the other hand it may or may not happen to a 997.1 you will probably lose a few thousand in depreciation but maybe only 3 or 4k ( based on how things have looked over the past 5 or so years) this means should you need a rebuild you have only lost the same as you would owning any other marque and if you dont you got to enjoy very cheap performance sports car ownership.

If you cannot take the risk or cannot fund a rebuild then I would suggest you look for a hartech full6 rebuild and pay the slight premium for one .

If you cannot or dont want to pay the slight premium for a hartech car but also cannot work the man maths option then I suggest you look at KIA turdingos or the like Grin

The reason we all think Hartech are the best is purely that Baz etc spend time on forums like this advising us how to minimise risks having spend years now reading Baz etc posts they are not IMO biased . what has happened is that the HARTECH name has become synonymous with a feeling of trust and confidence meaning that should we find ourselves in that need a rebuild position ,its fairly likely we will go to them or at least get a quote from them, this is where Hartech win as their name is on most owners lips ,but in turn the owners that get a hartech full6 can expect to get a slight premium for that car when its sold as the hartech name carries the confidence and trust branding .

In the past 6 months during my 997.2 rebuild I have had numerous conversations with Baz , Grant and Tobias at Hartech and have always found them . honest ,straightforward and decent and the knowledge they have is incredible.

As you can probably see currently I dont really sit in either camp, but do suggest your realistic about owning and running a 15yr old thoroughbred sports car, they are not unicorns Grin

But what I do know is theres very very little else you can buy for 25k ish that will bring a smile and driver enjoyment in a fast road car that can be used daily other than a 911 Grin Grin

ok that all from me as my beer fridge has just been restocked Grin Grin Thumb Thumb
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