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Iansta
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Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:38 am    Post subject: Tested a cayman, do I make the change........ Reply with quote

I currently have a 2004 997 C2S a manual in dark blue (can’t remember the exact colour) with a sand interior, sport classic wheels and passive sports suspension. It’s done 70k, 20 of which I have done.
It’s my first Porsche and while I love it I originally fancied a cayman but on realising I could afford a 996 or 997 I decided to go for it. Three years on I’ve fitted RSS engine mounts and a BMC filter and induction mod and enjoyed some amazing drives in what still feels such a special car. I can’t help looking at it as I walk away or past it to my other car which I use to commute most days (it’s a T-sport Yaris).
I’ve only ever kept a car longer than 3 years once (1.9 205 GTI I brought nearly 20 years ago, would have another in a heartbeat), so I was starting to get itchy feet about 6 months ago. I looked at both an E92 M3 and AMG C class as want to scratch the V8 itch at some point as it’s the last engine configuration I haven’t owned (with the exception of a V12 which I can’t ever see happening). Both where nice but dominated by their fantastic engines. I enjoyed both but there’s only me and my partner so I don’t need the practicality and neither could hold a candle to the 911 for fun, handling or that feeling of being such a honed package.
So I started to think about a cayman again and whether I should swap the 997. As luck would have it a work colleague had brought a 28k, 2.9 gen 2 in guards red with a sand interior, 18’s and the standard passive suspension. After a year was now considering moving into a 997 as it was his dream car. It seemed like a great idea to swap cars and see if we both fancied making the change.
First impressions of the interior was just how similar they were but on closer inspection it’s clear Porsche had upped the quality of the switch gear. For some inexplicable reason though it’s changed the the beautifully clear, classical font on the dials for something that looks like it was designed by a Disney cartoonist.
I was also surprised just how much higher you sit in the standard seats compared to the basic sports seats in my car even at their lowest setting. Not the best start but things improved as I set off.
PDK made it so easy and the extra ground clearance and more compliant suspension took the speed bumps and potholed roads in town like any boggo hatchback/saloon. No crawling along to avoid scraping the front end, no swerving round pot holes to avoid jiggling your insides. The engines smooth and feels smoother and more refined, NVH was significantly improved. PDK is brilliant in auto mode feeling smooth and responsive. I was starting to think it might be would be a good move to swap due how much more usable the car was. I know my other half would enjoy not having to wear her most supportive bra when we go out.
As we came out of town engines at operating temperature I moved to manual mode and sport ready for some great A roads. As we came to the first national speed limit sign I dropped to second in anticipation. As I saw my car squat in front I floored the throttle and watched my car pull away. No real surprise and nut wow did the 2.9 spin smoothly at the top end. The lack of interruption as you changed up was so impressive. As the first bend came up I hit the brakes hard and nearly wet myself, the pedal had so much travel completely lacked feel compared to my 997 which bites with next to no travel and feels like your foot is directly connected to the discs. You can tell exactly when you’re about to hit the abs threshold. Even 30 miles of hard driving later I knew stopping power was there but the consistency of feel never was. This was the biggest disappointment, my colleague confirmed that the discs pads and fluid were only a couple of thousand miles old and had always been this way.
Over the course of the drive I started to notice other areas where the cayman didn’t have the connection I look for. The steering was lighter and smoother but had less feel, body control wasn’t as tight. The engine while very smooth and Rev happy didn’t have the gritty mechanical feel. PDK was smooth and quick and made driving quickly easier particularly under hard breaking into corners but reduced interaction. I began to wonder if this was something I really was looking for.
The cayman breezed lumps and bumps, turned in better but couldn’t take power as early or hard at the exit.
It’s handling felt much more intuitive and didn’t seem to have any real vices, but there didn’t seem to be any secrets to learn. You just jumped in and up to my version of 7/10 it felt comfortable.
I was often having to push harder though to keep up with my 997 and this is where the lack of feedback became an issue for me. It felt like a leap of faith to push on and if it wasn’t for PSM I would have slowed down. I definitely wouldn’t feel as comfortable turning everything off as in my 997.
My car by contrast felt slightly alien to start with but over time It taught me what it likes to go fast, get weight over the front end as you turn in before using the traction to slingshot out. You don’t get it right every time but the car communicates how close you get to perfection. The hard ride smoother at speed but still it can be deflected, the car tells you what to do to deal with it though and this all increases your interaction and bond with the car.
After a couple of days to digest things and have a good drive in my 997 I think a cayman is a great car compared to most and is definitely a much more usable car all round. It’s easy to jump straight into and go quickly while enjoying yourself a lot. If I hadn’t driven a 997 I would be much more effusive. I could definitely enjoy a cayman and would use it a lot more but only around my town but is that a good reason to swap into one. I don’t think so, while a far worse car in town and not as relaxing or quiet while cruising a 997 is a great car to go on a road trip in and when you get to great roads it makes you work harder for it’s highs but the rewards are so worth it.
It’s made me realise that as a car enthusiast swapping usability for communication and fun is worth it and that I prefer bigger highs less often than regular lower ones.
And on that note I’m off to start saving for some Öhlins Road and track.


Very Happy Very Happy
 
  
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asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1253
Location: Cheshire

1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the only sensible option is to get a cayman for the daily driver and hold onto the 997
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TonyC911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 06 Jun 2016
Posts: 307
Location: High Wycombe, Bucks


PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting read. Presumably your buddy is now looking for a 997! thumbsup
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ragpicker
Estoril


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3948
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting and well written piece!

Its interesting to experience the driving characteristics of a balanced mid-engined car back to back with a rear engined car. As you say they feel very different but I disagree that they are as easy to learn to drive quickly.

Maybe because it was a 2.9 and not an 'S', but in full-fat mode and properly pedalled the cayman (and boxster) S is a good match for a 997 (or any 911 of the same generation), particularly on B roads and track as you can carry more speed into the corners which negates slightly the lack of outright power on the exit. The only really place a 987s should be left lacking compared to a 997 is on a long straight where the power difference comes into effect. I find you still need to trail slightly into corners, getting the feeling of the car rotating under you, at which point you know you've got it balanced enough to carry the speed.

There is a reason that the newer 911's are slowly becoming mid-engined. The 911 race cars have been mid engined for a while.

I think you've hit the nail on the head though, the lower power model cayman/boxsters have always felt underwhelming to me too, but as you say they aren't bad cars.

DOI - I'm a card carrying Boxster/Cayman superfan. Very Happy Thumb
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Chief
Magny-Cours


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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Location: The Middle lands


PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting observations and well thought through. I have moved from a 996 into a Cayman S Sport Edition. One of seven hundred that Porsche put everything on. Chalk and cheese to a pdk small engine model. I would suggest that it would be a more accurate comparison in this instance. I have no regrets. In fact I much prefer it.
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moonigan
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2017
Posts: 36



PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having driven the 718 GTS and 718 T almost back to back I decided to stick rather than twist. I posted my views on PH.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=231&t=1803581
 
  
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hermes
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Cayman Reply with quote

Running both is the only solution Very Happy
 
  
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Iansta
Trainee


Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it’s not the fairest comparison of a base 2.9 cayman and you can tell it wants to carry more speed in. I’m sure I’d become more familiar with it if I drove more miles but the steering and brakes didn’t give me the confidence.
My 997 took a while to adjust to but it’s steering and brakes kept me fully informed I wasn’t doing what it wanted. As you learn it’s quirks they also tell you when you get it right too.
I did put PDK in sports+ for a very short period. Didn’t like it, it felt like the engine and gear box amplified the chassis short comings, particularly accelerating out of corners where the inside wheel felt like it wanted to spin up even more making for a scrappy exit.
I admit I’m not completely put off and I think an S with a manual and passive sport chassis is likely to be a different beast and more to my liking particularly if the brake feels more consistent.
At least I know I definitely would not have the standard seats, I’m not a fan of using the top of the windshield as the sun visor!
 
  
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porkyb1
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Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I traded a Carrera GTS for a Cayman into which I had a tuned 3.8S engine installed (I need PDK). It has a bit more poke now with 415PS, custom suspension and upgraded brakes.

I find the Cayman a more stable platform although that is a comment on my driving style as much as anything else.
 
  
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rob_p
Österreich


Joined: 20 Oct 2013
Posts: 932
Location: Leicester


PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

porkyb1 wrote:
I traded a Carrera GTS for a Cayman into which I had a tuned 3.8S engine installed (I need PDK). It has a bit more poke now with 415PS, custom suspension and upgraded brakes.

I find the Cayman a more stable platform although that is a comment on my driving style as much as anything else.
m

Ok I'll bite... sounds v interesting... details/link to a thread of some kind? thumbsup
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Plus some other stuff that wasn't very interesting....
 
  
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porkyb1
Trainee


Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Porsche Club Forum Modified Section
 
  
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Luddite
Monza


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 185
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iansta, thanks for sharing your complex and detailed thought processes relative to comparisons of two rather different Porsches, one of which by admission that you "love," and another that you rather fancy. Well aint that just life, be it fast cars, women, boats or whatever else... Floor

Sure it can be an engaging process to get deep into all the possible nuances when there may be so many to consider though it seems logical (?) that when there is some measure of restriction applied it may be a tad similar to wearing blinkers....

This is without doubt a Porsche forum, thus you are amongst the faithful.... and that which I am about to suggest could just be considered unfavourably by some .. but I will risk it.. Perhaps if you expand your thinking outside the marque when in search of alternative heightened sensory driving interaction.. Question

Dare I suggest a Caterham if you really want to test your base driving skills while increasing your sensory perception relative to the whole process, from the seat of your pants to your fingers and toes inclusive of every brain cell... But then I suspect that may just be rather too basic as a form of transport in terms of fitting with other of your priorities, though as something tucked away in the corner of the garage to be fired up and romp off into the dawn on a Sunday morning providing that very necessary re-boot, and escape from other of of life`s priorities.......

I note that some folk here either by coincidence or entirely natural processes, seem to have a linkage to motorcycling, some of them may yet still throw their leg over, or have reached an age where they l have a m/cycle gathering dust in a corner of the garage.. Perhaps they too, desire a form of ctrl, alt, del, on occasion thus fired the bike up and went for a quick blast in the hope of accentuating the benefit of their more usual everyday Porsche experiences, the comfort, luxury and modern sophistication and perhaps a measure of possible adjustable isolation from much on their Porsche`s exterior that they had bought into when buying their chosen Porsche, all of which is wonderful until the next time they fell the need or desire to re-set things just a tad...

Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to drive a 997, though from that which I have read and that you have typed it seems there may be a fair degree of variability in terms of choice in relation to a measure of either sensory isolation or involvement built in to the 997, be that as simple as making it`s presence more obvious to the wider world, by operating a switch to alter the exhaust gas routing, or indeed something a tad more complex relative to adjusting programming within defined parameters in the decision making process whereby the on board computing makes decisions relative to many aspects of how the Porsche will progress over the next few miles or more... All of which would seem to extend the capability of the machine to convey a reasonable level of variation in pleasurable driving experience, all be it rather more sophisticated than just a a rough and ready ride...

Over the time I had owned and experienced my 60`s dog leg gear change and rather basic Porsche, through to the "sophistication" of a 70`s and then 80`s 911`s to then have the opportunity to spend a day in the then latest Porsche available in the form of the 993, and on my favourite local roads, by comparison with my old Porsche the 993 seemed to me to be a huge leap forward, in style comfort and engineering.... But.. today compared to your 997 or more advanced Porsches in the form of the latest 992.... I suspect the 993 will be considered by some to be almost stone age... Perhaps there will be those with very modern high quality machinery to transport them on a daily basis who have a now old 993 lying in wait to provide them with that which they judge as a RAW driving experience.... which was exactly as I felt when at the end of my day with the 993 when I jumped back into my 80`s SC and headed off back down the road and into that first roundabout.... As one much wiser than me once proclaimed... EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.. Question

It does seem that some here do indeed value that which their Porsche provides for them in all sorts of variations, from a perception of status, through investment potential, social interaction, engineering qualities, of course driving pleasure, and no doubt much I have skipped over in search of brevity... Laughing

Just thinking in type.. Question

Last edited by Luddite on Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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ragpicker
Estoril


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3948
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luddite, you'll do for me old chap Thumb

This is turning into my favourite thread at the moment. Who knew we had so many deep thinkers onboard!?
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MattyR
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Joined: 21 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, this is turning into an interesting thread Cool
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Iansta
Trainee


Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

porkyb1 wrote:
I traded a Carrera GTS for a Cayman into which I had a tuned 3.8S engine installed (I need PDK). It has a bit more poke now with 415PS, custom suspension and upgraded brakes.

I find the Cayman a more stable platform although that is a comment on my driving style as much as anything else.


Now that sounds fun Porky, a cayman more to my liking PDK or not. By the brief description of your tweaks and the impressions from my drive in the base version I’m sure you could create a car that carries speed into corners and also feels more stable.
I’m dam sure it’s very exciting and certainly has more feedback than the cayman I drove particularly if you’ve got seats that lower the driving position and mods to improve the brake feel significantly.
Perhaps I’ve been seduced by the 911 myth a little too but I’m really enjoying something different from the norm with regards to the driving experience and using the feedback to try and exploit it.
I also like a little fission of danger in my cars balancing smoothness with aggression and also respect when pushing hard knowing if you get it wrong it could end in tears.
Daft I know but just a little story about why. Had my 205 GTI about 6 months and had learned to exploit its adjustability, playing with the throttle to allow me to wind off lock in corners. I’d heard all the wild lift off oversteer stories but had never felt like it would swap ends or anything close. Out with a friend who kept banging on about how lethal they were, told him it was bo**ocks and to prove said watch this, turned into a familiar roundabout at a speed I had plenty of times, much sharper lift than usual, was nearly 180 degrees round before I could say I told you so! My how we laughed as you do when young and you realise you’ve been lucky not to crash damaging you or anything else.
I respected and loved it more after that and have looked for something that comes close to replicating that feeling again.
So far my 997 has come closest but has the electronics to save me from my own silliness if I want.
 
  
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Luddite
Monza


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 185
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies Iansta, did not intend to redirect interest in your very informative post, just thought it might be worth presenting an alternative line of though which it seems quite a number of Porsche owners have enjoyed over a number of years..?

Ragpicker, many thanks for taking the time to reply, I am pleased to think that anyone can find interest in my ramblings. Unfortunately I inadvertently cut out a paragraph when transferring from my word processing programme to paste it in this forum thus I have edited the initial posting to include it.
I should perhaps have fixed the spelling errors too... Embarassed
 
  
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Iansta
Trainee


Joined: 15 Apr 2016
Posts: 75



PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s an interesting point Luddite, I love cars of all types and it’s it’s probably a good thing I don’t have the money to ‘collect’ (use with hesitation as I would want to drive them all more than was possible, rather than sit and admire them) all the cars I’d like to try.
I’d love to daily my dream Porsche a 964 RS, the Bruce Lee of cars, small, compact and looks hard as nails. I’ve done a number of miles in a 996 RS and didn’t think the ride was to hard to daily so if a 964 is comparable I’d go for it.
I’ve always enjoyed slightly off beat cars that are fairly basic and raw for their type toys don’t do it for me at all and haven’t come across a touch screen I like more than analog controls.
I’m it’s only recently I’ve been able to consider something like a 911 due to a big promotion knowing how I like to look after cars Mechanically. I can only afford one car although have access to my partners so it’s always a compromise although everything relative I suppose as provided it has two seats, enough space for a small weekly shop and my other half doesn’t have to wear her sports bra for every journey it’s a contender.
I was hoping a cayman had that Porsche feel I enjoyed in my 997 with a more agile feel. Perhaps that’s why I was so disappointed although I’m sure you could make some changes to improve things significantly.
Just to cover off the bike thing, I love them particularly the engineering in modern sport bikes but I just don’t trust myself, I was bad enough with pedal power let alone 200hp through the back wheel. Other half’s wise words, I know you want one but in a car you catch the little slides when pushing hard and carry on, on a bike I can see you pushing on into an immovable object!
 
  
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Luddite
Monza


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 185
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iansta, many thanks for taking the time to consider my thought processes, and to reply.

That which I type is in no way meant as any kind of real criticism of the way matters automotive have evolved, or indeed the way that machinery is utilised and enjoyed today, but it seems logical (?) that the grumpy old man within me, may on occasion show face... (-:

I suspect that you like me are a child of your time, and thus our priorities are bound to differ to some degree as the result of the all important time differences involved, though regardless of all else the "relativity" factor is very likely to maintain a measure of importance in terms of our sensory perception relative to whatever automotive choices we make..?

I guess that I have perhaps been there done that some time before you arrived on the scene (-: My aim is just to sharing thinking, in the hope that there may be something within it that might be of benefit to you or anyone else engaged in processes of automotive evaluation..

As for your "love" in terms of desirable vehicles which in reality may prove to be entirely unsuitable on the road or indeed fit in with your lifestyle requirements in any way that might be considered as reasonable.... Hmm... been there done that too, and in my early 20`s with a very tired old race car that I LUSTED over and used on the road as my sole form of transport in employment that required me to travel all over the country on occasion....!!! I suspect man maths was fully engaged in 99% of the calculation processes and logic perhaps 1%..... thus I paid the price for my mistake in time.... But then you are only young once and perhaps it`s best if folk are left to make their own way... hmm..?

The only thing I would add is to agree with your other half re m/cycles, having gained a few gravel rashes in my time some of life`s experiences may indeed be best avoided, BUT... Question
 
  
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msaif996
Trainee


Joined: 08 Dec 2010
Posts: 72
Location: 997.1 Turbo Conv. 6MT


PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I looked at buying my first Porsche in 04 I looked at a few 993 cars but they felt ancient and I ended up with a 996 C4S 6MT. Fast forward a few years and I bought a 2012 981 Boxster S 6MT which I kept for five years. I’ve since bought a 997.1 Turbo 6MT. The mid engine car was by far the best handling and general all round car coupled with mod cons. The potent Turbo is the special one though, the childhood poster car realised. Emotive and subjective measures pointed me in the direction of a 911. Just another experience to share.
 
  
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