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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Tyre wear Reply with quote

The treads on the Cup 2s fitted to my 997.1 GT3 all seem to be wearing bang on level across the width of the tyre.

Car's mostly used on track, and I'm fastidious with checking and dropping pressures in first few sessions.

Is this good geometry, or am I not trying hard enough? What should I expect to see?
 
  
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you running an OEM suspension geometry i.e. how extreme is the camber ?
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 467



PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

911UK wrote:
are you running an OEM suspension geometry i.e. how extreme is the camber ?
No, it's on more track focused geometry. Not severe, but not standard.

Not got settings to hand right now, but more camber than standard, for sure.
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
911UK wrote:
are you running an OEM suspension geometry i.e. how extreme is the camber ?
No, it's on more track focused geometry. Not severe, but not standard.

Not got settings to hand right now, but more camber than standard, for sure.


Basically the geo you have matches your driving style, I expect your on about 2 or 2.5 degrees of camber.
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Tyre wear Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:


Is this good geometry, or am I not trying hard enough? What should I expect to see?


If your running to little camber the outer edge will wear and the little Michelin man will be missing from the side wall.

To much and the inner edge will wear out first. The cup 2 have different compounds across the width so this can hide the in balance.

But you must know all this being an ex hill climber no?
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just checked: 2.3 front, 2.2 rear.

Hillclimbs/sprints are a hell of a lot different: you start with barely warm tyres and rarely, other than on big circuits like Goodwood, generate much heat. Plus it was over ten years back and not with 911s.

Will be interesting to see how wear goes on hotter track days.

Michelin man still visible.
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
Just checked: 2.3 front, 2.2 rear.

Hillclimbs/sprints are a hell of a lot different: you start with barely warm tyres and rarely, other than on big circuits like Goodwood, generate much heat. Plus it was over ten years back and not with 911s.

Will be interesting to see how wear goes on hotter track days.

Michelin man still visible.


You normally see a bigger diff front to rear than .1, interesting do you get much push? Once you put more camber on the car than you have, you end up with inner edge wear as the to and from track hammer the inner edge. Plus any more camber also really puts the car on a knife edge when it's wet I find. It's all a compromise some where down the line.
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Push how? On power exiting a corner?

Thinking about the sprints, a lot of stuff was quite 'fixed'. We had custome Nitron dampers, but had to use standard wishbones, so nowhere near as much adjustment as a GT3.
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
Push how? On power exiting a corner?

Thinking about the sprints, a lot of stuff was quite 'fixed'. We had custome Nitron dampers, but had to use standard wishbones, so nowhere near as much adjustment as a GT3.


Yes coming out of corner under power, what size fronts 235 or 245.
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Senoj
Zolder


Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cup 2 wears very evenly and last ages. great tyre really. you could get away with 3.5 on the front and it wouldn't make much difference to wear IMHO. may tram line a bit on the street but definitely help on circuit.
 
  
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
Yes coming out of corner under power, what size fronts 235 or 245.
Doesn't feel like it's pushing, but perhaps I've not yet got it on track on a dry day to lean on it enough. On 235s front.

Senoj wrote:
cup 2 wears very evenly and last ages. great tyre really. you could get away with 3.5 on the front and it wouldn't make much difference to wear IMHO. may tram line a bit on the street but definitely help on circuit.
Thanks. With current settings, it's lively but not twitchy. I might try a bit more camber next time round to see how I get on. I don't really care too much about road use, other than I just want to be able to get to and form the track in one piece. Driving fast on public roads isn't really my thing.[/i]
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
Cunno wrote:
Yes coming out of corner under power, what size fronts 235 or 245.
Doesn't feel like it's pushing, but perhaps I've not yet got it on track on a dry day to lean on it enough. On 235s front.

Senoj wrote:
cup 2 wears very evenly and last ages. great tyre really. you could get away with 3.5 on the front and it wouldn't make much difference to wear IMHO. may tram line a bit on the street but definitely help on circuit.
Thanks. With current settings, it's lively but not twitchy. I might try a bit more camber next time round to see how I get on. I don't really care too much about road use, other than I just want to be able to get to and form the track in one piece. Driving fast on public roads isn't really my thing.[/i]


I found that once you go over 3 degrees on the front on my GT3 the car becomes extremely twitchy in the wet and very scary on public roads again in the wet. Currently on 2.85 degrees front which so far seems ok, wonder if wider track of RS helps in this situation as I couldn’t run those cambers Dan has quoted.
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggermeister wrote:
Cunno wrote:
Yes coming out of corner under power, what size fronts 235 or 245.
Doesn't feel like it's pushing, but perhaps I've not yet got it on track on a dry day to lean on it enough. On 235s front.

Senoj wrote:
cup 2 wears very evenly and last ages. great tyre really. you could get away with 3.5 on the front and it wouldn't make much difference to wear IMHO. may tram line a bit on the street but definitely help on circuit.
Thanks. With current settings, it's lively but not twitchy. I might try a bit more camber next time round to see how I get on. I don't really care too much about road use, other than I just want to be able to get to and form the track in one piece. Driving fast on public roads isn't really my thing.[/i]


I found that once you go over 3 degrees on the front on my GT3 the car becomes extremely twitchy in the wet and very scary on public roads again in the wet. Currently on 2.85 degrees front which so far seems ok, wonder if wider track of RS helps in this situation as I couldn’t run those cambers Dan has quoted.
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I get what you mean.

Certainly, on the trip to and from Spa or the 'Ring, I'm already a bit less relaxed in the GT3 than I was in the 996 turbo when it's wet. That would be a long old journey with a really twitchy car.
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3384
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having tried many, many geo settings on my 996 over the years, (everything from 2 to 4.5 degrees at the front & up to 3 at the rear), I have concluded that the optimal setting for my car & my driving style is around 3.1 F & 2.6 R with 15 minutes of rear toe & zero front toe. That's with 80N/mm front springs & 140N/mm rears with Moton Clubsport dampers and fairly stiff ARBs. Being on solid monoballs means the settings barely change during the year unless something wears out.

Set up as above, it's perfectly controllable in the wet & it can wear slicks, wets or any number of different types of road-legal tyres fairly evenly. Despite what many people think, the biggest killer of the inside edge of rear tyres is actually poor rear toe (either due to the static setting or worn toe adjusters allowing it to move under load). Investing in locking plates & motorsport rear toe arms will save a fortune in tyres and also impart great confidence in the grip the rear end has as a result.

I have 150K miles / 226 trackdays in this car so I am speaking with a fair bit of experience behind me. The fundamental GT3 suspension platform is largely unchanged on the 996/997 models & the Kussmaul settings are always a good reference point to start from.
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI20 wrote:
Having tried many, many geo settings on my 996 over the years, (everything from 2 to 4.5 degrees at the front & up to 3 at the rear), I have concluded that the optimal setting for my car & my driving style is around 3.1 F & 2.6 R with 15 minutes of rear toe & zero front toe. That's with 80N/mm front springs & 140N/mm rears with Moton Clubsport dampers and fairly stiff ARBs. Being on solid monoballs means the settings barely change during the year unless something wears out.

Set up as above, it's perfectly controllable in the wet & it can wear slicks, wets or any number of different types of road-legal tyres fairly evenly. Despite what many people think, the biggest killer of the inside edge of rear tyres is actually poor rear toe (either due to the static setting or worn toe adjusters allowing it to move under load). Investing in locking plates & motorsport rear toe arms will save a fortune in tyres and also impart great confidence in the grip the rear end has as a result.

I have 150K miles / 226 trackdays in this car so I am speaking with a fair bit of experience behind me. The fundamental GT3 suspension platform is largely unchanged on the 996/997 models & the Kussmaul settings are always a good reference point to start from.


You still got spacers on the front?
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nick. Food for thought there.

The future may well be new dampers, as you say.

My next project is the diff. I've just ordered some new Cup ramps and plates from JZM, to be fitted as & when it's next in with Mike at Sports & Classic...
 
  
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NXI20
Paul Ricard


Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3384
Location: South Bucks

2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
You still got spacers on the front?


No spacers except on slicks. Then it needs 7mm at the rear.
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2004 GT3 CS in Atlas Grey with too many mods to list!
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crash7
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 668



PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NXI,

Your setup is very similar to mine, I run different dampers, JRZ, and spring rates but the rest is there or there abouts.

I find mine fairly neutral, granted I do not have the tracktime you do, there is hint of under steer but I feel I can dial this out by adding a little more rubber at front.
 



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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crash7 wrote:
NXI,

Your setup is very similar to mine, I run different dampers, JRZ, and spring rates but the rest is there or there abouts.

I find mine fairly neutral, granted I do not have the tracktime you do, there is hint of under steer but I feel I can dial this out by adding a little more rubber at front.
Must have some wicked aero package to run upside down like that. Surprised
 
  
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