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MattCPR
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Joined: 07 Mar 2019
Posts: 12



PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: OPC Borescope Reply with quote

I’ve put a deposit on a 997.1 that is for sale by a private seller.

As part of the deal we agreed to have the car borescoped. The owner i would say is an ‘older guy’ and due to probably not being over familiar with the forums has never heard about the bore scoring on these cars.

All was going well until myself and the inspector explained what was going to happen (car jacked up, wheels off, plugs out etc) and he suddenly had a change of heart as no one but Porsche OPC have ever touched the car and he didn’t like the idea of “it being pulled to bits on his driveway”.

The upshot is that we have agreed for the car to go to his local OPC and have the borescope dont by them.

What I am wondering is what exactly will I get from them? Will it be a simple case of “the bores are/aren’t scored” or will a bit more information be given?

People have told me in the past that very light marking is expected on a car of this age but that’s is completely different to scoring. If this is the case I’m happy to buy the car. But if the OPC just have a quick look with the camera and see marks will they just write up “cylinders such and such scored, report over”
 
  
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timbo1811
Trainee


Joined: 13 Dec 2016
Posts: 94
Location: Dorset


PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as an 'older guy' I completely sympathise with the seller, we easily get spooked, having said that, I believe you will get photographs of each bore.
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MattCPR
Newbie


Joined: 07 Mar 2019
Posts: 12



PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timbo1811 wrote:
Well as an 'older guy' I completely sympathise with the seller, we easily get spooked, having said that, I believe you will get photographs of each bore.


I agree completely, I told the owner I completely want him to be happy with what happens with regards to the car. I think he is as nervous selling it as I am in buying it so we get on quite well Smile

I just don’t want the OPC to go over the top and ruin the deal and also have him thinking he’s got a knackered car. We shall see what happens when it goes in I guess. My local OPC is absolutely shocking with regards to customer service if I’m honest (I have another Porsche) so I wouldn’t want them to be doing it anyway.
 
  
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Milo72
Monza


Joined: 19 Sep 2018
Posts: 186
Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I went through the same issue when I bought mine...

Mine was borescoped at an independent and they took pictures and gave a view on what they thought. Mine had light marks which they said are expected with a car of this age but wouldn’t give any firm commitment on if the engine would go bang in 5k or 50k miles. The only thing they would say is that it didn’t have significant bore scoring.

My thoughts for you are that an OPC will give you a black or white answer, and then what do you do with that?

I was able to buy mine cheap enough that if the engine goes bang and I have to sink £10k into a new Hartech then I should get a significant part of that back if I wanted to sell it.

The view you will get on here will be. If you want bullet proof get one that has already been rebuilt, if you want a gamble buy it cheap enough that you can repair it at some point in the future...... that maybe a long long way off, but it will probably need it one day.

I wish you the very best of luck with it...... and welcome to the ‘what noise is that, is it going to blow’ Club Floor
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok .. well when i was at OPC we didnt have a scope !

So assumeing the OPC has a scope then what you want and MUST specifie is you want pictures of the cylinders .. no pictures .. you dont pay the bill .. pretty simple .

The scope they will probably be useing is a snap on one .. it can photo .

OPC can then say if they are ok or not .. you can also post them here and we will look ..

I wont say im an expert but ive seen one or two scope pictures over the years and can give you an idea as can many of the other guys here .
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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
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Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with DeMort, you must have the pictures! There is no guarantee that the OPC will be experts in this.

Milo's advice is good Thumb buy a Gen 1 as cheap as you can with a few quid in the bank just in case, alternatively get an OPC warranty or Hartech plan for peace of mind.

I have pics of all my cylinders when mine was diagnosed with bore scoring for comparison, two had heavy scoring and one lightly scored. The dilemma will be if it has light wear marks, which might be expected, it might take an expert to tell the difference Question
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MattCPR
Newbie


Joined: 07 Mar 2019
Posts: 12



PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if the borescope from the OPC comes out clean, even with pictures I would still be getting it borescoped by someone else for comparrison and taking it up with Porsche if there is an issue.

To be honest I feel like I’m getting to the point of giving up on a 911 as I seem to be trying to convince myself on a daily basis that it’s not going to end in tears. 😂

Maybe just drive the wife’s Cayenne round with some 911 noises coming out for the Bose

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Swampy
Monza


Joined: 22 Aug 2016
Posts: 161
Location: N/W London


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MattCPR wrote:
I think if the borescope from the OPC comes out clean, even with pictures I would still be getting it borescoped by someone else for comparrison and taking it up with Porsche if there is an issue.

To be honest I feel like I’m getting to the point of giving up on a 911 as I seem to be trying to convince myself on a daily basis that it’s not going to end in tears. 😂

Maybe just drive the wife’s Cayenne round with some 911 noises coming out for the Bose

Floor



Matt, I was the same as you when I was hunting 2 years ago, I was looking to spend around 30k when I was 911 hunting, then read about the bore score business so stretched it to 50k for a bore score free Gen 2 Floor

Ok we now know that is not the case but TBH with you the way I see it is if it happens it happens, I really am not going to worry about it.
I'll just park it up on the driveway until I've saved up the 10k for a rebuild...

Go buy yourself one Very Happy


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resigner
Suzuka


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 1205



PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as it's only ever been touched by Porsche, it's a one owner car therefore he can definitely say that's the case?

I wouldn't trust my OPC to report properly. My Indy knows way way more than my OPC, which is why it goes to him and not them......

Can you watch them do the boroscope? Discuss what they see with them as they do it?
 
  
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AlpinaB3S
Trainee


Joined: 04 Oct 2017
Posts: 53
Location: Lincolnshire


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampy wrote:
MattCPR wrote:
I think if the borescope from the OPC comes out clean, even with pictures I would still be getting it borescoped by someone else for comparrison and taking it up with Porsche if there is an issue.

To be honest I feel like I’m getting to the point of giving up on a 911 as I seem to be trying to convince myself on a daily basis that it’s not going to end in tears. 😂

Maybe just drive the wife’s Cayenne round with some 911 noises coming out for the Bose

Floor



Matt, I was the same as you when I was hunting 2 years ago, I was looking to spend around 30k when I was 911 hunting, then read about the bore score business so stretched it to 50k for a bore score free Gen 2 Floor

Ok we now know that is not the case but TBH with you the way I see it is if it happens it happens, I really am not going to worry about it.
I'll just park it up on the driveway until I've saved up the 10k for a rebuild...

Go buy yourself one Very Happy


Swamps Smile
Agree

I was in the same boat last year. My 2p worth would be listen to the good advice on here, take a balanced view, and go into it with you eyes open.

You can read so much on here and elsewhere that will convince you that doom is guaranteed and then the next thing that its only 5% of cars. Then there is the debate about what marks constitute borescore and what dosnt.

I nearly didnt buy mine having dreamed of owning one since I was a boy, and then once I did I almost dare not drive it expecting it to "blow" at any moment. If you cant overcome that it will spoil the whole ownership experience. (Says me who still reads every thread about Borescore Rolling Eyes

I have bought mine out of winter hibernation this week and am just going to drive it.

Only you can decide if you do it or not but if you let it put you off completely you will be missing out. They are awesome and like nothing else.

Live the dream and dont let the scare stories (however relevant and possible they are) put you off
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Luddite
Monza


Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 187
Location: Scotland


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well what can I add of any value to this discussion.. perhaps nothing as I do not currently own a Porsche and I am not entirely sure if I do get round to buying one it will be a 997, though given I have seen a rather nice looking 997 at circa £17k and that 3.2 911`s, 993`s even those with an expected 100k +miles seem to begin circa £35k and can be advertised for two, three times that and perhaps more, I can definately see the attraction towards 997 on a potential value for money sports car basis as opposed to the investment vehicle aspect of Porsche which so many owners find a measure of comfort within...? Been there done that so not being critical.

Living on a tight budget but being overly keen on buying the car of your dreams may work out if you are lucky and young enough to recover from a possible mistake that your finances do not face ruination, as a youngster I bought my then dream car... a Lotus Elan though it was a rather used example as was determined by my budget at the time... and truth be told it was definately a less than wise decision though boy did I give it my best shot, being reasonably capable at most things mechanical... in the end I sold it and bought an Austin Maxi... Jeez talk about chalk and cheese, but it was a reliable monstrosity. If you are reading this Swampy, at that time I lived in a city flat with street parking so nowhere to park it up until I could save up enough to restore it to anything like reliable, or indeed justify such costings to my then new wife who no doubt had far better ideas as to how we should spend such relatively large sums of money.. and that it was my only means of transport, other than my Norton Dominator, which did not fit the bill for my work requirements, so yeah young men`s dreams can turn out to be nightmares..

Porsche... well by the time I was dreaming about that marque MANY years later.. reliability in terms of engineering quality was without question, sure some folk ran them without reasonable maintenance till the timing chain noise would scare pedestrians.... and Porsche in time modified the design of chain tensioners, with a relatively simple kit of parts that used oil pressure to assist taking up chain slack... Porsche at that time seemed to me to be carved out of the solid when compared with other sports cars I and my friends had owned over the years, thus it came as a GREAT disappointment for me to hear/read of the potential for any Porsche engine to be capable of something approaching self destruction, or become so expensive to repair that it may be entirely uneconomical so to do relative to the worth of the vehicle... add to that possible bore scoring and my reaction was... WHAT !!! ...shudder.!!!

Yeah it does seem that perhaps only a very small percentage of engines may suffer either issue but I do wonder if the Porsche extended warranty scheme came into being as a measure created to calm the nerves of those like me who thought Porsche engineers had lost their marbles or what, given it seemed they had designed a flat six engine with self destruct capabilities, and management thus thought it best to provide some sort of comfort for it`s customer base by offering an insurance scheme against such seemingly ridiculous possibilities...? Whether Porsche were the first motor manufacturer to adopt this form of insurance or not, I have no idea, though I think Land Rover offer something similar for circa £800 annually on a three year old Evoque..? While I have no doubt that LR and the products of many other motor manufacturers are not without their possible issues, I suspect few engines have the potential to damage themselves to the degree they are beyond economical repair if properly treated and maintained.

I suspect much may depend upon just how much of a gambler one is when thinking of buying ANY second hand sports car, the clue is perhaps in the first word of the description of the machine..? Sure some old ladies may indeed buy a 911 to go shopping, I knew one lady perhaps in her sixties ( a young thing(-Smile the wife of a Church of Scotland minister who bought a 993 turbo when they were the current model... and did not hang around waiting for the police to catch up on the motorway.. (-: In general I tend to expect a sports car to be well..err..used as such at least by one of it`s many drivers/owners in it`s lifetime, even garage queens may have been driven somewhat inconsiderately prior to being fully warmed through on that rare Sunday morning bid for freedom from the pressures of weekday living...?

When I looked at 997 gen 1`s I thought it best to factor in circa £10k as an insurance sum should I have engine problems, then thought that by adding that 10K to the purchase price I could get into higher mileage Gen 2 territory, but then if I believe that which I type, I would expect there to be some chance of repair or replacement of something, so perhaps best to buy from a specialist Porsche dealer in the hope it would be checked out and a guarantee provided ... but then I would be paying more from the outset in the hope if any issue should show it`s self, whatever guarantee was provided might cover the issue, well at least to some extent... I guess there will ever be an element of a gamble and if that is difficult to accept, then perhaps a re-evaluation in necessary..?
 
  
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GMG
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 07 Jan 2018
Posts: 347
Location: Devon


PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...it is accepted that any older sports car will require maintenance and replacement parts but what sets the M96 engines apart, as you say, is that they can and do destroy themselves despite their service history, ownership count etc...and without warning leaving the owners with a massive bill...plus after about 70ish k miles crank bearings etc will be worn with a rebuild not far away...

They are wonderful things but despite their current value are not cheap to run if you want to enjoy them at their best...
 
  
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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1714
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
...it is accepted that any older sports car will require maintenance and replacement parts but what sets the M96 engines apart, as you say, is that they can and do destroy themselves despite their service history, ownership count etc...and without warning leaving the owners with a massive bill...plus after about 70ish k miles crank bearings etc will be worn with a rebuild not far away...

They are wonderful things but despite their current value are not cheap to run if you want to enjoy them at their best...


You're right that any older sports car requires maintenance, but that is true of any older car, or any newer car for that matter! Having been unfortunate enough to have had to shell out for a Hartech rebuild myself, I can speak from experience that it is a massive blow to your 911 experience! having said that, I knew the risks when I bought the car, small as they are, if somehow you don't accept them, you would be foolish to not be prepared for the worst somehow. That can be to deal with it if it ever happens, put a little away each month or take out a Porsche/Hartech warranty.

The positives of it happening and having a Hartech rebuild are that at least some of the cost will be returned due to a higher resale value, peace of mind and a fantastic engine that is better that it came out the box Thumb

I truly believe that the risk is very small, otherwise there would be far more tales of woe on this forum and others.

I don't think the 997 is a particularly expensive car to run, that is unless you have all your maintenance and repairs at an OPC! If you can do bits and pieces yourself and use a trusted indie, they are no more expensive than any other similar value car. Plus, despite all the paranoia around these engines, there are very few other cars out there with such strong residuals!

Go buy a 911, they are fantastic Thumb Thumb Thumb Thumb
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Swampy
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Joined: 22 Aug 2016
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Location: N/W London


PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMG wrote:
....plus after about 70ish k miles crank bearings etc will be worn with a rebuild not far away...


GMG... You make it sound as if the engine only has a shelf life of 70k Surprised
A tad OTT statement I would say, we've had plenty of owners on this and many other forums who's cars have done 150k+ miles and are still going strong Very Happy


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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be concerned that the OPC tech's would be able to interpret the horoscope views appropriately - as demort alluded to many do not do this as they have no kit and it needs a keen, experienced eye to make a proper assessment.

My choice would be Hartech or a decent Indy who will have more experience in this.
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GMG
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Joined: 07 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I reckon that the OPC could do your horoscope...they probably have a red top laying around Floor they might struggle with a boroscope however...

& it is acknowledged that the crank shells will start to show significant wear from about 70k onwards...I appreciate that there will be cars running around with 150k miles but the engines will be very worn and certainly not in peak condition...
 
  
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deMort
Long Beach


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
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Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The owner of the car has only ever used an OPC and as such doesnt think Indys are any good .. thats not a problem .. i have to admit i wasnt that keen on Indys until i actually joined one and saw the quality of the mechanics .

After all im ex OPC and now at an Indy and so are my Collegues.

Truth be told Indys are far better at Customer relations than i think any OPC will ever be .. lots of reasons but ill not go into it here .



My point .. OPC can scope .. can have their say .. The OP needs to post the pictures here and we can say what we think .. that way the OP has a balenced view .

It really doesnt matter who actually takes the pictures .. it matters what is seen on said pictures .

I have literally just had a car in 997 and smokeing badly .. misefires on x1 bank , dark tail pipe on x1 bank .. i scoped it .. i saw a few marks but nothing that concerned me so changed out the AOS .. job done .

Bear in mind this car used 4 ltrs of oil in 60 miles !!

A dirty tail pipe one side .. misfires on the same bank doesnt always mean its bore score .. i learnt something on this one !
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Chris_in_the_UK
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Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deMort wrote:
The owner of the car has only ever used an OPC and as such doesnt think Indys are any good .. thats not a problem .. i have to admit i wasnt that keen on Indys until i actually joined one and saw the quality of the mechanics .

After all im ex OPC and now at an Indy and so are my Collegues.

Truth be told Indys are far better at Customer relations than i think any OPC will ever be .. lots of reasons but ill not go into it here .

My point .. OPC can scope .. can have their say .. The OP needs to post the pictures here and we can say what we think .. that way the OP has a balenced view .

It really doesnt matter who actually takes the pictures .. it matters what is seen on said pictures .

I have literally just had a car in 997 and smokeing badly .. misefires on x1 bank , dark tail pipe on x1 bank .. i scoped it .. i saw a few marks but nothing that concerned me so changed out the AOS .. job done .

Bear in mind this car used 4 ltrs of oil in 60 miles !!

A dirty tail pipe one side .. misfires on the same bank doesnt always mean its bore score .. i learnt something on this one !


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DucatiRob
Albert Park


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
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2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely post the pics on here! I would also be there when they do it so you can see the images yourself on the scope and whether they are using a decent piece of kit. The pics I had from my indie were rubbish and I never really believed it until scoped it myself!

Pic of a scored bore, not exactly conclusive!


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HSC911
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Joined: 23 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampy wrote:
GMG wrote:
....plus after about 70ish k miles crank bearings etc will be worn with a rebuild not far away...


GMG... You make it sound as if the engine only has a shelf life of 70k


Grin

You'll get used to him Floor

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